I agree with all of RM's proposals bar 1

[tpost]

Royal Mail has a good ,honest and loyal workforce but this will sadly diminish if Royal Mail keeps hacking at our terms, benefits and conditions.

The pension should have been sorted out in 2008 when we was still publicly owned.
Not sure how a 35 hour working week will work when we can not complete our deliveries with 39hrs week

A YES vote is needed for more bargaining power

unfortunately a loyal workforce means nothing as its all about profit now we are private. You are right the union should never have backed down on the pension 2008 however we are where we are and the current proposals on pension are still good compared to what many get outside. The local paper recently published what binmen where paid in the local area http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/b ... d-13353168" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; some get paid as little as £15.5 k a year so although our job is physical it is quite well paid. Basically the future will mean constant pressure on our terms and conditions but the point we are at is crucial, if we vote no we are stuffed and voting yes and walking out will do us no good. So a yes vote looks likely, lets get back in and get the beast deal we can but people will have to be realistic, there will be change, and no outright victory.

[Martin Walsh]

Urban Pirate these are my reasons for voting yes and encouraging all members to do so.

1. On Pay they have made the new lump sum £375 dependent on the union accepting the following :

Trailing the multi bundle option in numerous offices.

Agreeing to later acceptance times and moving start times

Trailing walk ownership

Automatically issuing of stage 1 and 2 attendance warnings without interview or mitagration.

Trailing automated hours Data capture i.e. The All dancing clocking in an out and resourcing system.

Additionally the £375 lump will only be consolidated into basic pay once the above has been introduced into every office following the trail period. ( Read Mike Newby's letter ) https://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communi ... 62&t=79802" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In years 2 and 3 Royal Mail want to use Weighted items per gross hour as the trigger for any future pay rises. It is a financial measure not a true productivity measure and is based on averages. It does not reflect accurately things like attendance calls , door step scans , recordeds. Secondary sorting , multi floor working , where your office is outside its post code or new delivery points. However they still want to use it as the measure to increase pay rises in the future.

2. Pensions - Royal Mail closed the DB scheme in 2008 and opened an unagreed DC scheme for new starters. At that stage we had been in a strike for over 8 days and some had been out unofficially. So the union did not influence the setting up of the new scheme as there were at that stage no members in the scheme. From that date the unions known only a strike would move Royal Mail on changing the DC scheme.

So when Royal Mail announced the closures of the DB scheme from 31st March 2018, they broke the legally binding agreement on executive action. Their pension offer has twice been improved due to the pressure of the union but it is still a poor scheme. For someone who was 50 and had done 30 years in the job and was in the Old POPs scheme they would lose 23% of what they would have got under the DB scheme. Additionally if you were aged 30 with 10 years service you would lose 51% of what you would have got under the DB scheme. The key here is the further you are away from pension age the harder your hit.

Additionally Royal Mail's scheme does not include pensionable allowances so shift allowances , TPM etc would no longer count torwards your pension so this would impact on the late s**t and night shift workers.

The union have put forward the WINRs scheme and wants everyone in one scheme.

Royal Mail still want two schemes I am willing to strike to get one scheme.

3.Legacy Payments - Legacy payments have come from other national agreements and the commitment those national agreements gave was you would receive these payments in perpuity. So I do think individuals have a case to keep them.

Also remember the christmas bonus which Royal Mail want to make performance related comes from a legacy bonus called IWM which was agreed in 1987.

Additionally the delivery supplement, processing supplement , distribution supplements come from outdated legacy payments such as early shift payments and d2d. Be careful what you wish for.

4. Part timers - the union want them to get hoiliday pay and Royal Mail keep rejecting this in the talks. The union wants Royal Mail to abide by the 6 month review and the ability for part timers to increase their contracts. Additionally the union is arguing that the business should not have a policy of only 25 hour contracts coming into the job as it stops part timers already in the job becoming full time.

5. Resourcing - Too many offices are now driven by budget rather than Delivering Mail to quality targets. How many offices due to vacancies , part timers not being made up , overtime not being paid have work left in frames ? Royal Mail don't have to declare part USO failures hence why they ensure a few letters go out on walks. The union have presented to Royal Mail hundreds of photographs supplied by members and Reps of work left in the office rather than delivered to service standards. The CWU are demanding an independent enquiry into this and commitments too ensure offices are resourced properly and members of staff are not bullied to work beyond their time without pay.

6. Legal Guarantees - The shareholder does not like the guarantees. Royal Mail have even suggested in the talks we could buy a parcel companies and have self employeed staff on cheaper money deliver all the growth in parcels and downsize the rest of the operation. The CWU want an extension of the legal guarantees until 2222 with a further review.

7. New Entrants the CWU reject a two tier workforce on worse pay , leave , no supplement , less sick pay and a default 17:00 finish.

Pipeline - The CWU believe Royal Mail's plan for the pipeline is really about cost cutting and not capturing the growth in the market. Royal Mail only want NDC to be a late acceptance parcel drop depot. Every other parcel company who goes for later acceptance have a hub and spoke operation where you have a number depots based regionally too capture later parcels. Royal Mail want to use 1 and the real reason behind using one is that it will drive later starts because the works won't leave NDC until after 0200 in the morning and still has too go too the inward Mail Centre to be processed before heading for the Delivery Office. Having one LAT depot is playing with capturing the growth but impacts on start times .

Multi bundle option- most people say this won't work. But don't under estimate why Royal Mail want this too work. Royal Mail are fast becoming the biggest estate agents in the country as they sell off offices and land. What is stopping them from introducing their 5 year strategy from moving from 900 Delivery offices too 450 is the size of the sorting frames. So the multi bundle option is a real game changer for them. The multi bundle option drives much later starts hence Royal Mail wanting deliveries to go out until mid-day.

Multi bundle is based on sequencing when 90 or 95%? Of the work is either in the Mail Centre or MPU. For the majority this is around 02:30 in the Mail Centre/ MPU. A batch will take considerably longer to sequecince that the current 60/40 two wave. Once you get the 95% of the sequencing into your office they don't want you to sort that work into the frame but check and tie down. This means you do not need the bigger frames anymore. The second 5% of sequencing will come in walk sorted and along with your manual you will throw that smaller amount of work into a smaller frame. This will be your second bundle.

Door too Door will be collated using the current collating machines and that will be your third bundle. They would want you tooo tie the three bundles in small bundles so you merge whilst on the steeet they still want staff too use the baby carrier too store work whilst on the street. The union reject the multi bundle option and believe it is flawed.

Walk Ownership - A complete con. They have dressed this up as you having more control over your working life and to take the sting out of absorption. Instead this is about controlling you more , you will cover sick and annual leave within groups of 10 , you cannot cut off , you will have seasonal viarations of hours , staggered starts so more than one person can use the same frame . The walk will be yours but seniority will finish and collective negotiation over the whole office revision instead the DOM will discuss the change on an individuals based on performance , productivity etc.

Data auto hours capture - Royal Mail want to introduce this too resource in the future. The CWU believe that it will lead too bullying and will lead to individual performance rates.

Standard attendances - In Royal Mail there are a range of attendance patterns ranging from fixed 5 day weeks , ro stating rest days , more Saturdays off , wallington s , wallington plus , 9 day fortnights , 4 day weeks. Royal Mail want only one attendance pattern a 5 day rotating rest day and they want that harmonised across the UK.

Lastly the union want a 35 hour gross working without loss of pay and retain meal reliefs. This would result in an instant pay rise for part timers as the hourly rate will go up.

The reason for such a reduction is automation is reducing indoor workload and if we stay on 39 hours and indoor work is reducing than you will have to have longer and longer spans and with the average age in Royal Mail around 50 the length of spans is vital.

So these are the reasons why people should vote yes. The size of the yes vote does count and it has been proven time and time again in Royal Mail that sadly they only listen to the workforce when we vote yes.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I am disappointed - will people please amend their posts in this thread that fall foul of the major rule of this forum

Quote: Just because someone has a different viewpoint or political position to you, it does not mean that they are a 'Manager' or a 'Union fanatic', any posts making such assumptions or generalisations will be pulled or amended and the poster warned. This also applies to posts that are not aimed at individuals but at groups.

If you don't I will delete any post on MY return that I think has broken this rule

[rainbowwarrior72]

I agree with all RM's proposals bar 1.

I think the pay increase is reasonable considering the current economic climate.
I think the DC scheme is reasonable (And so do the union as they were/are quite happy to see anyone after 2008 on it)
I think that historical payments should be stopped. You have an office where one guy to the next could be doing the exact same job but one of them is being paid more for what really is no good reason anymore.
I think changes in the pipeline will have to happen if we want to stay competitive in this industry. Our big customers want to be able to offer next day delivery on orders placed as late as possible. Wether the customer is there to collect it is here nor there. Doesn't matter to them. They want it dispatched asap.
Working 9-5 is not the end of the world. Most of the UK workforce works this way and they haven't collapsed from exhaustion, turned to dust or into gremlins any second past 3pm.
The world changes and so must we. Thats life.

The one thing I cant abide by though is new entrants being offered different T&C's. They divided the workforce back in 2008 with the pensions and low and behold they are coming for your pension now. It's fairly obvious if they divide the workforce this way now then down the road they will come for you.

Discuss.

I actually agree re the two tier work force not being acceptable I have given up on the pensions as I think we are going to go thru some more revisions before I retire. I voted YES because I don't hear or see any growth for the business re Moyas & Sues vision for the business.

Re the legacy payments most of them were paid for via previous agreements from The Way Forward in 2000 in return for effiency savings made back then

Re working 9-5 I don't think with the various shift structures we do have atm we need to especially with the collections losing a lot of their work there is possibly another option to move them to 2-10pm shift and they can do the cut-offs, OT walks and redeliverys in the evening which would help them retain full time jobs in the main.

Things do change and sometimes have to but if things are working why change for the sake of change.

[rjack]

Multi bundle is based on sequencing when 90 or 95%? Of the work is either in the Mail Centre or MPU. For the majority this is around 02:30 in the Mail Centre/ MPU. A batch will take considerably longer to sequecince that the current 60/40 two wave. Once you get the 95% of the sequencing into your office they don't want you to sort that work into the frame but check and tie down. This means you do not need the bigger frames anymore. The second 5% of sequencing will come in walk sorted and along with your manual you will throw that smaller amount of work into a smaller frame. This will be your second bundle.

Not putting into the frame what about redirecting, missorts, gone away, split postcodes it's ok for the walk holder to remember when out on walk not to deliver but the relief won't.

[Spedley]

I think some people are getting confused between what the job is not and what Royal Mail will make it if they have free reign. I feel this really is an all or nothing situation with a yes vote giving potential for a decent outcome for the customer, the postie and the company. A no has no good potential outcome for any of those groups, only share holders and directors.

[UrbanPirate]

Multi bundle is based on sequencing when 90 or 95%? Of the work is either in the Mail Centre or MPU. For the majority this is around 02:30 in the Mail Centre/ MPU. A batch will take considerably longer to sequecince that the current 60/40 two wave. Once you get the 95% of the sequencing into your office they don't want you to sort that work into the frame but check and tie down. This means you do not need the bigger frames anymore. The second 5% of sequencing will come in walk sorted and along with your manual you will throw that smaller amount of work into a smaller frame. This will be your second bundle.

Not putting into the frame what about redirecting, missorts, gone away, split postcodes it's ok for the walk holder to remember when out on walk not to deliver but the relief won't.

yeh, check and tie up? How would that work?! I dont have a walk so only know the regular walks im put on and even then only so much. Some streets can be quite fiddly and need the frame for reference. Also Re-Di's and missorts... I cant help but feel it would still need to be thrown off and tied up but it would take considerably less time if 95% mech.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Done. Now please follow the rules and to make it clear:

Argue the point, not the poster.

[UrbanPirate]

I think some people are getting confused between what the job is not and what Royal Mail will make it if they have free reign. I feel this really is an all or nothing situation with a yes vote giving potential for a decent outcome for the customer, the postie and the company. A no has no good potential outcome for any of those groups, only share holders and directors.

Unfortunately we don't own the business so the job is what RM tell us it is. Yes, they should respect the employees but its a two way street. Allot of people want to have the cake and eat it. The world and industry has changed. Its highly competitive now (We no longer hold an monopoly) and packets is where the money is. It makes total sense to restructure the pipeline to take maximum advantage of this. The DB pension is unaffordable. When companies let their pensions run away with themselves it can end them!

Given the situation we find ourselves in I do agree we now have to return a convincing yes vote. As said before though, this will not be the magic bullet people think it will be. RM already know it will be a big yes. They know staff were always going to oppose these changes. But yet, here we are. WHY???? What do you think is going to happen. RM will fight us on this. Its a fight they will win. The union and staff need to get realistic with what they want and pick a battle they can win and make a decent compromise.

[fishtank]

RM already know it will be a big yes.

You have no evidence to support that and the fact that the business has spent a small fortune on leaflets, WTL sessions, videos and flying some of its senior management all around the country trying to drum up a NO vote would suggest that RM believe that it is not a foregone conclusion.

Royal Mail do not want to take on their staff, with the massive changes planned they know they need the staff on board to have any chance of implementing them.

[UrbanPirate]

RM already know it will be a big yes.

You have no evidence to support that and the fact that the business has spent a small fortune on leaflets, WTL sessions, videos and flying some of its senior management all around the country trying to drum up a NO vote would suggest that RM believe that it is not a foregone conclusion.

Royal Mail do not want to take on their staff, with the massive changes planned they know they need the staff on board to have any chance of implementing them.

Cmon, of course they know. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. All it will take is a quick look at social media and to step into any DO in the country to know a big yes vote will be returned. You are underestimating your enemy. At your peril.

[Tman]

On one of the last big votes (Deal of the century?) everyone was guaranteeing a massive Yes vote (well, they were on here, anyway) but it never turned out quite like that.
I'd be surprised if it was anything like the majority some are predicting.

[fishtank]

I've been in the game far too long to underestimate anybody but there's also a danger in overthinking every situation, RM believe that they can undermine the union's position and weaken its negotiating strength. They have spent a lot of money and hired strategists to do just that. Nobody does that if they believe a YES vote is inevitable. That makes no sense at all.

[Acca Dacca]

2. Pensions - Royal Mail closed the DB scheme in 2008 and opened an unagreed DC scheme for new starters. At that stage we had been in a strike for over 8 days and some had been out unofficially. So the union did not influence the setting up of the new scheme as there were at that stage no members in the scheme. From that date the unions known only a strike would move Royal Mail on changing the DC scheme.

So when Royal Mail announced the closures of the DB scheme from 31st March 2018, they broke the legally binding agreement on executive action. Their pension offer has twice been improved due to the pressure of the union but it is still a poor scheme. For someone who was 50 and had done 30 years in the job and was in the Old POPs scheme they would lose 23% of what they would have got under the DB scheme. Additionally if you were aged 30 with 10 years service you would lose 51% of what you would have got under the DB scheme. The key here is the further you are away from pension age the harder your hit.



7. New Entrants the CWU reject a two tier workforce on worse pay , leave , no supplement , less sick pay and a default 17:00 finish.

.

Will 8 days be the limit before RM are allowed to bring in new entrants on worse conditions THIS time? Then have us all on them in future cause we were alright Jack in 2017?

Not a personal dig but its really galling I've been in a worse scheme for nearly a decade doing same job as others who will be better off

I accept you've tried to justify it and it must have been tough but it doesn't bode well for new entrants that union ( and I include members here ) decided since it didn't affect the then current workforce in 08 it wasn't worth continuing IA

[Acca Dacca]

New RM uniform for when Multi-bundle is introduced



A complete nonsense