What exactly are 'Legacy Payments'?

[cloherty1976]

B - Removal of old outdated legacy payments
2000 Driver’s allowance
2000 PHG allowance
PBS / ICS bonus
Time bonus
Road Network Scheme
2007 early shift protection
2007 Way Forward protection
LA1 Supplement
Pay Protection
Network 2007
Reserved Rights Night shift (both higher PHG rate & protected pensionability)
LGV allowance

Now I'm confused! So it doesn't include Defined Area (RRIS)?

What's the network 2007 please ?

[chrisj]

I knew I will be shut down... All that race to the bottom talk - this dispute is now about pensions. The CWU cannot bring back defined benefit scheme for those after 2008. We can strike everyday for 1 month, it will not happen. No no!

So I am not misinformed, if you are in a defined contribution, they can increase employer contributions or even lower your admin cost but you will never ever get final salary pension.

And final salary pension robs the future employees and it unfair. RM might be making a lot of income presently but bigger companies have failed due to costs and so on.

Let's stop fixating on RM of the past or the salaries or bonuses of CEO and bosses. Is your pay and condition good for the job you are doing - YES, it from me. Will I like more, yes, but I know I am doing fine and not greedy.

I shall like to see examples of legacy payments specifically written into contracts!

It always was about pensions most of the other stuff is a smoke screen to slip it through without too much fuss

What a load of rubbish final salary robs future employees!

There are many articles stating that big business is choosing not to provide decent pensions purely to increase profits,dividends etc basically sh#tting on the working class where as companies originally wanted to reward staff for a lifetimes loyalty!

If you're happy to retire on a annual pension of £2.50 a week then fair play but most of us are not!

If the whole world moves to defined contribution then the rate for both employee and employer need to go up massively but then you will get people who say I can't afford it but spend £50 a week on take always,£50 a month on a rotten Apple 12 phone or spend a £100 a weekend in the pub

Ok, I was overwhelmed the final salary bit but that is the premise of defined benefit system. And as things stand those that started a day after the closure of defined benefit to new starters are on an inferior pension scheme - nothing is going to change that. That fight was in 2008 and was conceded.

I just believe that we should all benefit from what we put in - your pension benefits should be directly proportional to what you put in it. As for people not saving for their pensions - well, whose fault will that be?

Pensions always depend on continued contributions from new employees and the ability of the companies to pay. We are still lucky in this country that pensions are generally still covered and/or guaranteed by government but for how long especially for private businesses?

We can all fine at large in 2017 but the famine is always around the corner.

As for the record, my pension is going to be less than £50 a week (for life - if the system does not change again). And that is if I work till 65 or us 69??? I put money away for my old age.

[Spedley]

I'm going to be very badly hit but not sure I'd class myself as being an 'oldie'. It is true that the Union should have stood up more for the new starters in 2008, that was a bad mistake which is coming to bite them now.

Everything else you state I totally disagree with but I feel the biggest point is that you should vote YES or leave the union. Don't vote against those whom you are paying to act on your behalf for your best interests.

[chrisj]

So you agree that we are already in a multi-tier system where people are now being paid differently for the same doing the same jobs... So what else is there to disagree with?

We have 2 PHGs in my office, one gets a legacy payment, the other does not - how is that fair? The one that gets the payment does not even do delivery; the other is always been sent out when we are short.

I think I should get driver's allowance but then all new employees now have to be drivers while some that were there before can be non-drivers, hence less responsibilities and hassle. It goes on and on. Recruitment and retention payment when there is no shortage of workers.

I should also add that the new pay deal refers to new starters being on different shift patterns.... How hard will the CWU fight for that or you will all say after the agreement that we should have fought for that just like the pension that got away in 2008.

I am not bashing the union but talking mostly about the present dispute and how the Union have conceded in the past; usually to favour the oldies.

Just like clashcity said, we might agree with something but not the way it is being done.

Lastly, as someone who has had other jobs, later starts is not a problem for me - that is the real world; people can fight for things but if you do not like your job anymore then quit. This is now a private company.

I just do not know what I am going on strike for and where any of it benefits me but on the contrary...

[POSTMAN]

B - Removal of old outdated legacy payments
2000 Driver’s allowance
2000 PHG allowance
PBS / ICS bonus
Time bonus
Road Network Scheme
2007 early shift protection
2007 Way Forward protection
LA1 Supplement
Pay Protection
Network 2007
Reserved Rights Night shift (both higher PHG rate & protected pensionability)
LGV allowance

Now I'm confused! So it doesn't include Defined Area (RRIS)?

From Dingo...

RRIS removed unless the rentention or recruitment in an area demands and they don't think it does. Those being paid RRIS have a range from £5 to £35

Essex Amal letter...

Review both RRIS & TPM

Guys please see the original thread here, especially what Dingo says...
Royal Mail's proposals in the current pay, pensions and change strategy negotiations slides in pdf format

[Driver74]

Agree with everything chrisj says and I'm probably what you are describing as an oldie there's a lot of bravado on here about striking everyone talking about 1-2 day strikes just maybe Royal Mail will take on the union if we go on strike and when we go back they will say sign your new terms and conditions if you want to work here and within a very short time everyone will be back and Royal Mail will put everything in they want and it will be no good going sick because there will be no sisck pay anymore change is going to come so maybe we should negotiate the best of what's on offer

[Celtic Postman]

I genuinely think you are looking for for reaction but just incase you aren't I appologise and will try and cover a couple of your points.

So you agree that we are already in a multi-tier system where people are now being paid differently for the same doing the same jobs... So what else is there to disagree with?

I don't think he said he agreed we are in a multi tier system where people are paid differently.
What he says is that the union should have done more in 2008 for the new guys which to me points to the DC pension scheme as there was no change in the pay for new starters.
We all get the same base pay, just that some get allowances for doing different jobs, shifts etc...


We have 2 PHGs in my office, one gets a legacy payment, the other does not - how is that fair? The one that gets the payment does not even do delivery; the other is always been sent out when we are short.

There is no such thing as a PHG anymore so where you get this idea from to argue your point baffles me.
You may be confused regarding postpersons who applied for the locker duty or DOM support but they are the same grade as you and me.
You cannot make assumptions of why as you say "one doesn't even do delivery" ( Are you privy to his reasons wether it be medical ability or what?) as there may be a valid reason

I think I should get driver's allowance but then all new employees now have to be drivers while some that were there before can be non-drivers, hence less responsibilities and hassle. It goes on and on. Recruitment and retention payment when there is no shortage of workers.
You applied for the job I assume knowing that a driving licence was part of the recruitment requirement

I should also add that the new pay deal refers to new starters being on different shift patterns.... How hard will the CWU fight for that or you will all say after the agreement that we should have fought for that just like the pension that got away in 2008.

The pay deal you keep harping on about is a pay proposal, Not a deal, and the PEC has rejected this as you have been informed already.

I am not bashing the union but talking mostly about the present dispute and how the Union have conceded in the past; usually to favour the oldies.
Your not bashing the union? But you think nothing of bashing and degrading fellow older workers by labelling them "Oldies"
The membership is the union and it will decide what is acceptable when the relevant proposals are placed before them. The PEC can only advise.

Just like clashcity said, we might agree with something but not the way it is being done.

Lastly, as someone who has had other jobs, later starts is not a problem for me - that is the real world; people can fight for things but if you do not like your job anymore then quit. This is now a private company.
Yeah a lot of us have had other jobs outside RM but you seem to think that if someone is in a job for a while ( Some a lot more than others) then it is okay for the business to just change the job so that it is impossible for these guys to stay in and force them to quit?
Some guys has family issues, partners working, childcare etc...
That could be classed as constructive dismissal if it makes someone who has have to give up their livelyhood through no fault of their own just to suit.

I just do not know what I am going on strike for and where any of it benefits me but on the contrary...
Sometimes when your in a union you have to make sacrifices for the better of the majority rather than just thinking I'm alright jack as a few guys on here have had to do over the years

[Driver74]

Not looking for a reaction but lots of people in Royal Mail have had their hours changed drastically over the last few years that's life but the real point is if you think going on strike Royal Mail will just give in and we'll go back to how it is now you are dreaming not everyone on here has to agree with a strike there are many people I work with who think the same

[Celtic Postman]

Not looking for a reaction but lots of people in Royal Mail have had their hours changed drastically over the last few years that's life but the real point is if you think going on strike Royal Mail will just give in and we'll go back to how it is now you are dreaming not everyone on here has to agree with a strike there are many people I work with who think the same

If it is an official strike then you have certain protections.

The company have to adhere to certain rules just as the union have to to stay on the right side of the legal minefield.

I'm not here for tit for tat as the union membership will decide, not the individuals, so it doesn't matter what I think about the end outcome but as you say " I am with many many more guys who think along the same lines as myself and will give the PEC my backing come the vote.

Ps I know it's sad sitting here typing away at this time but I'm waiting to take the grandkids back to their parents.

[Driver74]

Ps Celtic postman I agree it's sad I'm not working till Tuesday and nothing left I fancy on tv

[Spedley]

I don't believe you should ask the majority about taking payments away from the minority whilst dangling pay rises and threats in their face. There are many issues all being boiled into one by Royal Mail and the Union has found itself being forced to bring RM back to a reasonable level to have proper talks about the real issues.

Pensions are a big issue, along with pay and security for current employees. Those are the issues which should be discussed.

Legacy payments and the future direction of the company are separate issues and should be negotiated seperatly, not used as a hammer in the above negotiations.

[stephen500]

They are payments that some long term posties are still getting despite the fact that the reasons or parameters for getting those allowances do not really exist or not justified.

In this present dispute, staff after 2008 have nothing to gain by going on strike. In fact, they have more to lose in the near or long term future.

RM will never be able to continue to pay us at such an inflated rate compared to the competitors. And the defined pension arrangements is always a tax on future generations. It is not just about RM alone but it is simply unaffordable, especially given the current and future economic climate and the longevity of retirees.

RM could easily scrap some of the legacy payments but instead they want to buy them out; basically they pay up front and stop the never ending payments for things like PHG (position does not even exist anymore) [Wrong RM have admitted that these payments are contractual and cannot be taken away without agreement!]
and recruitment and retention - that is not relevant anymore: more people want inferior part postal jobs than ever before.

This strike is all about the oldies - typical!

By way, the new pay offer states that RM wants to employ newer staff at a more inferior terms and condition (owner driver coming for this Xmas already). What is the Union going to do about it - nothing but talks and regrets.

We already a 3-tier or more workforce... But Union talks about fighting for a section of the workforce - what about those on Defined Contributions and other part timers on inferior terms???

[chrisj]

We have already been divided and the classic divide and rule continues even during this dispute.

If the folks on defined benefits gets their way then they are miles better off than any that started April 2008; even by days. That fight was lost and this is part of the legacy.

Moreover, RM will introduce new shift patterns and most likely inferior terms for new starters and we as a collective will most likely let it slide, again, as we have bigger fishes to fry.

As a I speak, I am becoming part of the oldie that has sold new staff down the river but I do not want to be that complicit anymore... I give up! I will not continue to vote to shaft others. I will rather be part of the shafted.

I am not trying to get reactions but my reality might be very different from some of those that badly wants a fight... We negotiate and rationalise and take stock.

The Union has already won a few things and those are mega in this day and age and given that we are a private company... Let us be careful and stop navel gazing.

RM might be very much in the black now but who knows what will happen in the future. Let us not be too greedy. Investments drain profits, wages and pension even more and then other things including competition and directives. RM's bouyancy might not last for much longer - it is our company and let's not wreck it!

I know the post of PHG does not exist anymore - I did mention that previously but we still mostly call people in the caller's office PHGs...

If you think that just because new starters gets the same pay rate then we all have the same t & c then you should engage some of these folks on impossible hours and mad rotating contracts and being sent here and there and having less of this and that...

[Spedley]

As a I speak, I am becoming part of the oldie that has sold new staff down the river but I do not want to be that complicit anymore... I give up! I will not continue to vote to shaft others. I will rather be part of the shafted.

I'm not sure that makes sense. Are you implying that voting YES will shaft people?

[chrisj]

Simple answer is Yes. Just like we accepted the Privatisation and Shares sweetener... And the many times we have voted based on current employees not the future ones. And the future employees pension contributions is what will continue to fund the generous defined benefit and also the current defined contribution.

The more we take the less there is for those coming behind us. And that is not just about RM and us the employees but in general over the modern generations.