Later starts

[gary1975]

Working until five during the week is one thing,but Saturday would defo be not very popular getting home at gone six on a Saturday

[Darwinsdad]

I used pretty much the same 'rules' in my previous employment has TBT stated above, as well as
1. Never ask/tell your blokes (and later blokesses) to do something that you aren't prepared to do yourself
2. When members of my workforce left I always asked them what three things would they change and why. Even the relatively junior members sometimes have ideas that are worth listening to and sometimes implementing.

There were also times when I had to take the 'no nonsense' approach mentioned by SOB. However, instead of booting them out, it was a case of trying to provide more mentoring to get them on track and giving them more responsibilities to develop themselves. Sometimes though it was a case of trying to flog a dead horse and that would be when the official warning process would start.

If I'd have taken the way of doing things like the 'managers' at my place and the ones I've read about on this forum, the best I could have hoped for was 'oooops, I've walked into that big metal thing', worst case a bullet in the back.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

To be blunt with an approach like that its a good job you aren't a manager. But then I wish a lot of managers in Royal Mail had a least a modicum of training in personal skills.

I have been one (not in RM) and there are some simple rules to go by.

1. Try to lead your workers into change, don't force them.
2. Listen to your workers, they usually know the coal face conditions better than you do.
3. Try to keep your workers happy as a happy workforce is more productive.
4. Train your managers and workers properly - it's cheaper in the long run.
5. Try not to lose long serving employees their knowledge is hard earned and not easily replaced.
6. Workers are a not a resource to be discarded with an "if you don't like it leave", they are an asset that if treated well, generally reflect well on the brand.

Sadly RM don't do any of these, and evidence seems to suggest you wouldn't on at least one of these.

As an aside I always thought if you don't like it leave is a pessimistic approach. Why not, If you don't like it, stay and make it better. We won't stop all changes, but we can at least make them better and more workable.

I have been a manager in the private sector so I do have some knowledge and skills on the matter. There is actually more that we agree on than disagree on even if it may not always seem that way. I think where we may disagree, however, is where you see all employees as basically good to be treated well, I know from experience that not all employees want to work or care enough about the job no matter how much of a softly softly approach you take with them. Sometimes it is necessary to take a firm no nonsense approach and weed out the ones who clearly have no interest in their job and don't care. In Royal Mail there is open disregard and disrespect for management which we see everyday stirred up by the union agitators. No other employer would put up with this nonsense. You would be out on your ear.

I have actually dismissed people so I know people can be an arse if you are seen as a soft touch. However, I still firmly believe that as group workers should be treated well. They should be given a chance to shine and as managers its "our" responsibility to guide them in whatever way we can. If they still show themselves to be lazy, incompetent or just plan bad then yes bring out the big stick.

I have in the past voted Conservative and indeed before I joined Royal Mail I did not ever see myself ever joining a Union. However 3 months after joining Royal Mail I made up my own opinion before even reading the Sawyer Report:

35. We found that in the failing Mail Centres this culture was still all too common. Such managers are essentially supervisors - or, as they were
described to us - “body watchers”. We were more than once presented with a picture of a front-line manager as someone who stands in the middle of a
work area with his arms folded watching the employees and whose permission has to be asked whenever an employee wants to go to the lavatory
or get a drink of water. That may be a stereotype, but in fact we observed some of these behaviours for ourselves.

36. Such managers direct the work but they do not manage the staff. When they come to apply the Conduct Code or the Attendance Procedure they are liable to treat them simply as punitive procedures to be applied mechanically and to ignore the emphasis on correction and counselling which have been deliberately written into them. When asked to carry out tasks which involve leadership and communication skills - such as conducting briefings and meetings requiring genuine discussion with employees - they are often out of their depth. They are ill-equipped to face the challenge of motivating employees at a time of rapid change.

37. The same attitudes can be found in more senior operational management. It shows itself in a refusal to correct or (in extreme cases) punish unacceptable behaviour on the part of front-line managers. Many senior managers, like their front-line subordinates, often have little concept of
how to deal properly with their employees or their union representatives. Many used the language of “Management control” - reflecting a prevalent “command and control” attitude.

Sadly the report confirmed my views that the reason why Royal Mail management are treated with such disregard and disrespect is because, that's how they treat their workers. There are managers at Huddersfield that are generally well respected when they are running the office it runs much more smoothly and with less strife, and its all down to how they treat staff. When they say sorry nothing I can do, you believe them. You do the tasks they instruct you to do with little complaint because you know they are being fair and equal, and you know when you ask them a question and they don't know the answer they won't make it up to get rid of you. Respect earns respect, disrespect earns disrespect.

However, I do agree that Royal Mail do continue to employ people that I wouldn't even think of hiring, never mind keeping them in employment. But there are processes and procedures designed to ensure that these people can be tackled to change their behaviours, or dismissed fairly if they don't. The drawback is that the process is long and complicated and like most people, Royal Mail managers tend to shy away from confrontation when its the right thing to do. There is a time to be confrontational and a time for gentle persuasion, sadly in my time, RM seem to get it the wrong way round.

[postslippete]

What happened to Work, Life Balance???

Was it just some words on a bit of paper that sounded good so RM decided to use it? One of the great things with RM was the early starts and finishes. And every time RM gets even later starts another chink of our reputation with the public - many of whom buy from our customers - gets eroded away. If Royal Mail push for working a 9 to 5pm, nobody will want to do overtime. Most of the guys that do the overtime now only seem to do it if they can somehow finish at a reasonable hour. On a 9 to 5pm I can see RM managers delivering the mail beyond 9pm and our company will be one great big joke.

You know it wouldn't be so bad starting later and not having a large outdoor span as well. Thats the double whammy of it all. 1pm Specials, one of our staples, forget it.

[loverman shabba]

mail volumes may be declining which i cant see myself seems to be more an more shitty magazines. screwfix virgin all that crap. full time posties is what i see declining

[DGH]

35. We found that in the failing Mail Centres this culture was still all too common. Such managers are essentially supervisors - or, as they were
described to us - “body watchers”. We were more than once presented with a picture of a front-line manager as someone who stands in the middle of a
work area with his arms folded watching the employees and whose permission has to be asked whenever an employee wants to go to the lavatory
or get a drink of water. That may be a stereotype, but in fact we observed some of these behaviours for ourselves.

36. Such managers direct the work but they do not manage the staff. When they come to apply the Conduct Code or the Attendance Procedure they are liable to treat them simply as punitive procedures to be applied mechanically and to ignore the emphasis on correction and counselling which have been deliberately written into them. When asked to carry out tasks which involve leadership and communication skills - such as conducting briefings and meetings requiring genuine discussion with employees - they are often out of their depth. They are ill-equipped to face the challenge of motivating employees at a time of rapid change.

37. The same attitudes can be found in more senior operational management. It shows itself in a refusal to correct or (in extreme cases) punish unacceptable behaviour on the part of front-line managers. Many senior managers, like their front-line subordinates, often have little concept of
how to deal properly with their employees or their union representatives. Many used the language of “Management control” - reflecting a prevalent “command and control” attitude.

Sadly the report confirmed my views that the reason why Royal Mail management are treated with such disregard and disrespect is because, that's how they treat their workers. There are managers at Huddersfield that are generally well respected when they are running the office it runs much more smoothly and with less strife, and its all down to how they treat staff. When they say sorry nothing I can do, you believe them. You do the tasks they instruct you to do with little complaint because you know they are being fair and equal, and you know when you ask them a question and they don't know the answer they won't make it up to get rid of you. Respect earns respect, disrespect earns disrespect.

However, I do agree that Royal Mail do continue to employ people that I wouldn't even think of hiring, never mind keeping them in employment. But there are processes and procedures designed to ensure that these people can be tackled to change their behaviours, or dismissed fairly if they don't. The drawback is that the process is long and complicated and like most people, Royal Mail managers tend to shy away from confrontation when its the right thing to do. There is a time to be confrontational and a time for gentle persuasion, sadly in my time, RM seem to get it the wrong way round.

Excellent post.

In Royal Mail the general attitude amongst managers seems to be:

'The punishment beatings will continue until morale improves'.

It's very interesting to me the double standards that most of the managers have. When workload issues arise, they will be far more reasonable with popular and outspoken senior staff, much more hostile towards new starters or older workers who seem less popular or are less outspoken. Basically they go for soft targets. It's frustrating because most of the managers are in fact pretty decent people when they're not faced with the prospect of actually having to manage.

We have one line manager who is the classic 'arms folded, watching' type. He exercises himself by shouting out exhortations to work harder and shouting facile 'safety advice'. He will never make a decision or respond to a request for him to do something if he can possibly avoid it. His stock response it to ask you to take it to another manager or to resolve the issue yourself. He's dreadful.

The others are better insofar as they do try to manage and will listen to (if not always resolve) issues. However not one of them ever attempts to proactively prevent an issue from arising. Seldom, if ever, do they do anything but deal with each individual crisis as it arises in the most superficially easy way (ie easy for them) possible and then forget about it.

In the last decade we must have had over fifty different line managers. The same issues occur now as ten years ago. Daily.

We've had six different DOMs in that time. It's fair to say that their calibre has generally improved (Our current one is the best and the previous one second best). Yet none of them seem able to get their line managers to actually manage.

[GRS]

Working until five during the week is one thing,but Saturday would defo be not very popular getting home at gone six on a Saturday

A good point and one of those that will just be shrugged off or laughed at when mentioned. Probably get the classic " I doubt that will happen " line by a manager which means they have no answer or way of being able to deal with it when it does.

[Destiny]

Isn't most of this thread related to 1 of the 4 Pillars anyway.
Mail decline, indoor workload, acceptance times why we want 7hr days?
Chat I heard at the Rep tour, one of those RM options possibly trialled would be mail then onto your parcels for a 6 hour delivery span

Anyway thing to be of concern are the trials happening now, waysiders etc... now that's worth worrying about!
If it happened I would snap your hand off to carry on as I am now, keeping status quo as much as possible just finish later

[lightningpostman]

finsh latrer no thanks, struggling to make 1pms now let alone startiung and finishing later.

"is this tommorows mail"?
"your late"

2 tier workforce is what we need.

meaning mail and packets as different duties.

anything bigger that cannot fit in a letter box (each walk/house is different" will get split.

mail goes out early morning, then the rm packet team take packets go out after.

So rm mail and packets are seperate, fuill timer comes in preps walk seperates packets from walk and packet duty, goes out to delivery mail, packet duty comes in loads up delivers goes home.




4 pillars you say, shorter working week by cutting our finish times on the easiest of days, rm workers would not win anything infact the company will stand to profit from that.

keep your shorter working week, i rather have my hours.

delivering in the dark been there done that , health and safety hazard , walkiung up and down poorly lit drives , looking for door numbers in the dark no thanks.

[SpacePhoenix]

finsh latrer no thanks, struggling to make 1pms now let alone startiung and finishing later.

"is this tommorows mail"?
"your late"

2 tier workforce is what we need.

meaning mail and packets as different duties.

anything bigger that cannot fit in a letter box (each walk/house is different" will get split.

mail goes out early morning, then the rm packet team take packets go out after.

So rm mail and packets are seperate, fuill timer comes in preps walk seperates packets from walk and packet duty, goes out to delivery mail, packet duty comes in loads up delivers goes home.




4 pillars you say, shorter working week by cutting our finish times on the easiest of days, rm workers would not win anything infact the company will stand to profit from that.

keep your shorter working week, i rather have my hours.

delivering in the dark been there done that , health and safety hazard , walkiung up and down poorly lit drives , looking for door numbers in the dark no thanks.

Can't see that happening, it wouldn't be worth sending any mail out early you'd only have lorries half full at best.

Once RM move the pipeline back a couple of hours, then DOs will almost certainly be 9-5. The main dispatch from MCs to DOs is currently 06:00, with the pipeline moved back 2 hours, it'll make the main dispatch 08:00, the lorries are then going to catch all the traffic so realistically very, very few DOs would get their main dispatch from their local MC arrive before 09:00

[donein]

delivering in the dark cold wet in the winter. not for me thanks.

I didn't mind delivering in the dark cold wet in the winter from 6am but I won't be delivering in the dark cold wet in the winter up to 6pm .

The way it's going we may not have a choice!

RM's strategy is give the workforce even more unmanageable workload & will expect it done within the allocated time!

If you go over your time then that's your problem, as no extended O/T will paid! Just like current working models of Amazon, Hemes, Yodel..et el..

do you mean we will have to work past our finishing time to complete without being paid overtime Don,t understand when my hours are up thats that back to office with undelivered mail my understanding they cannot force you to work past your hours unless i have missed something not having a go at yer im confused

[citypostie]

delivering in the dark cold wet in the winter. not for me thanks.

I didn't mind delivering in the dark cold wet in the winter from 6am but I won't be delivering in the dark cold wet in the winter up to 6pm .

The way it's going we may not have a choice!

RM's strategy is give the workforce even more unmanageable workload & will expect it done within the allocated time!

If you go over your time then that's your problem, as no extended O/T will paid! Just like current working models of Amazon, Hemes, Yodel..et el..

do you mean we will have to work past our finishing time to complete without being paid overtime Don,t understand when my hours are up thats that back to office with undelivered mail my understanding they cannot force you to work past your hours unless i have missed something not having a go at yer im confused

I think what he means and dingo has mentioned is they want performance standards (ie speed of delivery) for outdoors. Once established they use this to calculate your workload for the day to fill your hours, no set duties just based on the mail that it's coming in. If you go over you'd be underperforming so won't get paid extra, suppose if you blast it and make time you could go home early because you have over performed

[terry2972]

if performance standards come in its going to be interesting as they will have to set them very low or have different ones for each age group as not many in their fifties could match the speed of someone in their twenties and if rm expect us all to be the same it might make a good claim in court as I for one will be finishing at my finish time whether I have completed or not

[Brandy]

I worked for RM for 19 years and have never known a firm change so many ways of working without really giving it much thought and what the ramifications would be.Can you remember the fiasco of Consignia!!!!!! I wonder what has become of the person or persons who came up with this crazy idea? No doubt promoted!!!!!

[elteleltel]

Saturday's are the biggest issue for many , weekends are short enough as it is . Work / life imbalance if 9-5 comes in