Later starts

[milly]

if letters are declining year on year, should there not be any left, tell a lie often enough, people start to think it's the truth!!!

I work in a Mail Centre and 15 years ago we used to run collection mail through the machines from 1.30pm until 8.30pm.
Presently we run collection mail from 6.30pm until 7.45pm, I am inclined to believe that Royal Mail are telling the truth about declining letter volumes.

[SierraOscarBravo]

if letters are declining year on year, should there not be any left, tell a lie often enough, people start to think it's the truth!!!

Of course they are.
Less people send greetings cards - they use social media to send birthday wishes etc.
Less and less people recieve bank statements, credit card statements, mobile phone bills, utility bills - invoices for work carried out is paid for and done on line.
Who pays bills by posting a cheque nowadays - very few people.
Remember all the Sky Mages - gone - online versions.
Hundreds of magazines have gone out of business or moved to online versions.
Trading on ebay is almost all paypal - who pays for an ebay item / amazon item by writing a cheque.
My house move - all the interactions were done on line - my solicitor sent only a final approval by mail - years ago it would have been almost all by paper mail.
Just had 3 contractors do work on my house - all 3 sent invoices by email and I paid by direct bank transfer - no posting at all.
Holiday paid online - E Tickets received via email
Holiday Insurance the same.

Care to disagree with the above.

This will only continue.

Hence decline = less and less year on year.
There will come a time very soon when councils will send council tax bills online.

I think it is more a case of burying your hands in the sand.

Royal Mail need to act now and go for and smash the Next Day delivery market - that is where jobs will be saved.
To do it they need a flexible workforce and union.

Completely agree with the points you make. I keep saying it but sadly too many of our colleagues are just too set in their ways and don't want to face up to the huge changes that we must make as a business to secure all our futures. Too many hanker after a bygone era of 12pm finishes and being paid 2 or 3 hours ghost overtime for delivering a handful of letters.

If we have to move towards later start times to capture the next day delivery market then that is what we have to do. Millions of people work 9-5 and don't whinge about it. You just get on with it and accept change has to happen. Moaning that you might fall over in the dark is just ridiculous. Your didn't moan about it when you were posting letters in the dark mornings a few decades ago.

Seems some people just like to moan at everything and expect everything to be handed to them on a plate.

Ship up or ship out.

[Pidleypoo]

Seeing as though ernieshoe and sierraocsarcbravo have all the answers on this, cloud you tell me how much money it will bring into r.m ?
Will it be worth more than actually paying its employees all the hours they work ? Because in my experience the office I work in gets about 400 hours per week free work from people working for free because they've been bullied into doing so for fear of losing their jobs and don't take meal breaks or come in early.
Letters can drop all they want but the deliveries in my office have never been more unachievable.
Also when we worked in the dark years ago we did not have to carry or use a pda, trolley, scan multiple parcels, try neighbours, dogs tended not be out that early and most estates these days do not have street lights on most of the streets we will be on.
For me it's a massive Heath and safety issue and we are constantly told that is paramount

[osgoody1970]

i'm not suggesting mail is not declining, but this statement has been trotted for the last 10-15 years, so if you were going to a door with 4 letters ten years ago, but are now going to the door with two, it doesn't affect the dely span, indoor yes, but it is quite easy for senior management to trot out these statements, but it is the content of it all, suggests that delivery spans should be longer to balance the shortfall in letters, we now deliver more parcels along with letters, far more than we did ten years ago, do you ever hear management say" we are making up for the declining letter volume, by delivering more parcels/packets, no that's my argument, not burying my head in the sand, by managements statement....we should have no letters left, by now!!!just saying!!!

[ernieshoe]

i'm not suggesting mail is not declining, but this statement has been trotted for the last 10-15 years, so if you were going to a door with 4 letters ten years ago, but are now going to the door with two, it doesn't affect the dely span, indoor yes, but it is quite easy for senior management to trot out these statements, but it is the content of it all, suggests that delivery spans should be longer to balance the shortfall in letters, we now deliver more parcels along with letters, far more than we did ten years ago, do you ever hear management say" we are making up for the declining letter volume, by delivering more parcels/packets, no that's my argument, not burying my head in the sand, by managements statement....we should have no letters left, by now!!!just saying!!!

I agree with you on that and the "burying your head in the sand" comment wasn't aimed at you.
There are so many drama queens on this board. Not you.
Royal mail management is appalling and never tell it how it is.
I have zero respect for the middle managers in Royal Mail.
But technology will make indoor work disappear so delivery really will be a very large bulk of the workload.
Royal Mail are miles behind in technology.
Letters will only decline and packets will only continue to rise especially Next Day Delivery.
So working later is pretty much the only sensible option to capture next day delivery.
From what I have read if you are talking 6 hour deliveries then really 10 - 4pm is more likely.
The delivery will be finishing before it gets dark.

[Godric]

delivering in the dark cold wet in the winter. not for me thanks.

I didn't mind delivering in the dark cold wet in the winter from 6am but I won't be delivering in the dark cold wet in the winter up to 6pm .

The way it's going we may not have a choice!

RM's strategy is give the workforce even more unmanageable workload & will expect it done within the allocated time!

If you go over your time then that's your problem, as no extended O/T will paid! Just like current working models of Amazon, Hemes, Yodel..et el..

if you have a contracted start and finish time they cannot expect you to work beyond that point regardless how much work load they impose on the work force

[pinstripe]

The main point of resistance to 9-5 working is simply that it is not what we signed up for..

The over riding factor, the main reason I started working for RM, like most of my colleagues, was the hours of work.

I started as an AG, back when we had 2 deliveries and I was finished and back in the office at 09.45. The full timers were usually finished by 11.30 (on a Saturday - 09.30).

I moved onto nights over 6 years ago because of the later start times back then, now, we have part time staff (and I'd be one of them if I wasn't on nights) who start later than I used to finish.

As far as I'm concerned, if you want to work 9-5, go work in a shop.

[SierraOscarBravo]

The main point of resistance to 9-5 working is simply that it is not what we signed up for..

The over riding factor, the main reason I started working for RM, like most of my colleagues, was the hours of work.

I started as an AG, back when we had 2 deliveries and I was finished and back in the office at 09.45. The full timers were usually finished by 11.30 (on a Saturday - 09.30).

I moved onto nights over 6 years ago because of the later start times back then, now, we have part time staff (and I'd be one of them if I wasn't on nights) who start later than I used to finish.

As far as I'm concerned, if you want to work 9-5, go work in a shop.

Most of us are working to 3pm now so why all the fuss about pushing it back another hour or two? Times change and we have to move with the times. Too many on here want everything about the job to revolve around them. The business needs flexibility from its workforce to enable us to capture the next day delivery market. There is no going back to 12pm finishes so stop whinging about how hard done by you are and relish the job you do. If you don't like it then leave. There are plenty more people willing and ready to do the job.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

To be blunt with an approach like that its a good job you aren't a manager. But then I wish a lot of managers in Royal Mail had a least a modicum of training in personal skills.

I have been one (not in RM) and there are some simple rules to go by.

1. Try to lead your workers into change, don't force them.
2. Listen to your workers, they usually know the coal face conditions better than you do.
3. Try to keep your workers happy as a happy workforce is more productive.
4. Train your managers and workers properly - it's cheaper in the long run.
5. Try not to lose long serving employees their knowledge is hard earned and not easily replaced.
6. Workers are a not a resource to be discarded with an "if you don't like it leave", they are an asset that if treated well, generally reflect well on the brand.

Sadly RM don't do any of these, and evidence seems to suggest you wouldn't on at least one of these.

As an aside I always thought if you don't like it leave is a pessimistic approach. Why not, If you don't like it, stay and make it better. We won't stop all changes, but we can at least make them better and more workable.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Please stop the "you are a manager", and "Union fanatic" posts it adds nothing to the debate and even if people are, so what, they are still entitled to an opinion. Suggesting someone is a manager or Union fanatic (obeying their Union Masters) is not a worthy opinion that shows respect, its designed as a put-down and if I suspect that's the reason for posting it the comment will be deleted, indeed have been already

You all want respect, well you need to show it to opposing opinions as well.

If this post is ignored the thread will be deleted.

[billie1956]

Work smarter not harder !!

[TheTrolleyMan]

if letters are declining year on year, should there not be any left, tell a lie often enough, people start to think it's the truth!!!

I work in a Mail Centre and 15 years ago we used to run collection mail through the machines from 1.30pm until 8.30pm.
Presently we run collection mail from 6.30pm until 7.45pm, I am inclined to believe that Royal Mail are telling the truth about declining letter volumes.

Maybe letters are declining but the number of scans are increasing and I never used to get 5 or 6 d2ds a week

[SierraOscarBravo]

To be blunt with an approach like that its a good job you aren't a manager. But then I wish a lot of managers in Royal Mail had a least a modicum of training in personal skills.

I have been one (not in RM) and there are some simple rules to go by.

1. Try to lead your workers into change, don't force them.
2. Listen to your workers, they usually know the coal face conditions better than you do.
3. Try to keep your workers happy as a happy workforce is more productive.
4. Train your managers and workers properly - it's cheaper in the long run.
5. Try not to lose long serving employees their knowledge is hard earned and not easily replaced.
6. Workers are a not a resource to be discarded with an "if you don't like it leave", they are an asset that if treated well, generally reflect well on the brand.

Sadly RM don't do any of these, and evidence seems to suggest you wouldn't on at least one of these.

As an aside I always thought if you don't like it leave is a pessimistic approach. Why not, If you don't like it, stay and make it better. We won't stop all changes, but we can at least make them better and more workable.

I have been a manager in the private sector so I do have some knowledge and skills on the matter. There is actually more that we agree on than disagree on even if it may not always seem that way. I think where we may disagree, however, is where you see all employees as basically good to be treated well, I know from experience that not all employees want to work or care enough about the job no matter how much of a softly softly approach you take with them. Sometimes it is necessary to take a firm no nonsense approach and weed out the ones who clearly have no interest in their job and don't care. In Royal Mail there is open disregard and disrespect for management which we see everyday stirred up by the union agitators. No other employer would put up with this nonsense. You would be out on your ear.

[rjack]

9am starts means we can go to the pub in the evenings again.

[GRS]

I have no real strong feelings either way on later starts. A plus would be the end of getting up so early so I would certainly benefit from a couple of extra hours sleep. However I can see how people are put out especially if the present set up fits around child care,maybe caring for ill relatives,or any other employment you may have etc etc. No point in just not liking it for not liking it sake - we may find it better, I don't know. It will be an issue regarding H&S and difficulty doing the job. For a start when we used to go out early it was dark but getting lighter within no time but if you are out when the darkness falls then it is only going to get darker. As people have said the job has changed along with the world and I can see how some people will find it very uncomfortable being out in dodgy areas in the dark when the scum of the country are up and about and looking to get up to mischief,also the job is a lot more fiddly nowadays and involves a hell of a lot more than it did 10/20 years ago, it will slow you down without doubt as it's obvious it takes longer to do things by torch or streetlight especially with the bloody shrinking size of print on items nowadays. Like I say, personally I'm not fussed either way but people have raised valid points so to just dismiss them as burying their head in the sand is a bit naive. The biggest problem is that no doubt the issues that people are raising will be brought up and RM will be the ones burying their heads in the sand and making out that these sort of situations won't arise just as they did when longer delivery was brought in with P&L, such as parking and toilet issues.