Royal Mail's proposals in the current pay, pensions and change strategy negotiations

[cloherty1976]

We do not need to at this moment rush into a strike ballot , the pension won't be changed to April 2018

So members should just accept the position of not having a clue whether they'll be able to eat when they retire just so the union can pick a more advantageous time to strike? This isn't a trivial game of bravado dingo and every day members don't know what their pension will look like is another day of stress.

The pension situation needs to be resolved as soon as possible and if that means striking now then so be it, the rest of the stuff most of which is a wishlist not a serious collection of proposals we'll deal with separately.

A lot of the workers in my office have joined in the last 5 years and are only paying 1% into the pension which to me makes the pension very hard to manage. Also these people are more interested in a bigger pay rise rather than the pension. Can you really blame them wanting more for today and worrying about tomorrow later in life. It's a very difficult position to be in but everyone has a different outcome they want to achieve in life.

[POSTMAN]

1st post now has the slides which were used at the National Briefing which I've put in pdf format, everything is in there.

[gb93]

Pensions
It is important to recognise that the CWUs pension proposals are for ALL Royal Mail employees represented by the CWU, no matter if you’ve been employed 1 week, 1 year, 10, 20 or 30 years and above. It is the CWUs belief that we should all be treated the same and that we should all have the opportunity to secure a decent income when we retire.
If it is CWUs belief that everyone is treated the same if been employed 1 week or 30 years why fight hard for legacy payments.
Why should someone who drove 20 year ago get a driving allowance but someone who has for 15 years or less does not. Why should people in an office who have less than 5 years not get a monthly bonus for doing exact same work.
Let's get a decent deal for all & that means some of these old payments are worth giving up.
If you want new members to fight for coditions let's level it up a bit.

Level it up! I stand to lose £42 per week in legacy payments and £5000 per annum in pensionable allowances. You don't sell out one member to help another.

With 7.5% the £42 would be very nearly caught back not withstanding the 4 hours less a week you would be working.
I said the pension proposal was totally unacceptable plus your pensionable allowance would go up with your basic pay so wouldn't be losing £5000
For the last 15 years or so the union have been giving up allowances for increases in basic pay what's the difference this time.

[gb93]

Quote from gb93

7.5% pay rise over 3 years with 4 hour reduction in working week or something even better won't be given for nothing.
We have to concede something or just go to strike (without guarantee of getting better) all I'm saying is I'm prepared to take a hit with some legacy payments to protect & improve everything else we have got.

Okay gb93 as you say You're prepared to take a hit with some legacy payments! so let just look at it a little bit closer.
Some of these guys who have the "Legacy payments" which you are willing to give up on their behalf are theirs by right as they endured all the changes placed upon them when major changes were forced through in 2000 and many many of them lost a lot of earnings.
To facilitate the changes that RM wanted, it was with the hard work and goodwill of these guys who had to stick to a strict set of agreed processes which included staying on duties, shifts etc.. to which RM put in writing that these legacy payments were in perpetuity.
They are the guys who stand to lose a lot of income which they earned through the years, when they had to go through the changes imposed on them from the "Way Forward" agreement, which to reduce could be devastating to a fellow worker who has a mortgage taken out on their level of wages.

So to go back to what "You are prepared to take a hit with" let's just ask what are you giving up?

I've been here through all the changes you mention & took the hits along the way the same.
I would take another fairly big hit again if the allowances went again.
But as I have said in previous post it has been the unions position for years to increase the basic pay at the cost of allowances so what's changed.
Every pay deal rm will use these allowances. There will come a time shortly when most won't be on these allowances & they will be given away for nothing as newish members won't see it as their battle.
Let's get something now for them & at the same time have all members on parity so rm can't use them as tactics to divide us.

[IloveMYredTROLLEY!]

They also want Team working so you cover sick leave , rest days , annual leave within your team with no overtime

From a brief look at Dingo's post pasted to the thread beginning, the above stands out as being the biggest urine extraction bit.

DOMs will run depots on a skeleton staff, with "planners" making duty overall indoor/outdoor workloads even more unachievable and the above gives them permission to make us stay out there until gone 1700 (having started at ~0700) for no extra pay above an ~8 hour day!

All profits coming just from GLS?

[Newbie001]

They also want Team working so you cover sick leave , rest days , annual leave within your team with no overtime

From a brief look at Dingo's post pasted to the thread beginning, the above stands out as being the biggest urine extraction bit.

DOMs will run depots on a skeleton staff, with "planners" making duty overall indoor/outdoor workloads even more unachievable and the above gives them permission to make us stay out there until gone 1700 (having started at ~0700) for no extra pay above an ~8 hour day!

All profits coming just from GLS?

They can't enforce any paid never mind unpaid overtime. The only way around this would be banking hours. But the proposals seem a bit sketchy on this. Even though it's the only way they can bring in half of what they're proposing with regards to flexibility.
Would you trust any manager to enter correct hours worked or not worked. Clocking in and out would be only fair way.

[Chitchat]

A few observations from the Briefing today !

Royal Mail want to cut costs , the only part of Royal Mail which is making money is GLS.

In 2007 Royal Mail delivered 23 billion letters costing 5 pence

In 2016 Royal Mail delivered 13 billion letters at 12 pence per item

They expect in 10 years letters will be 7 billion and the cost per item will be 22 pence.

Parcels traffic below shoe boxed has flatlined ,

You say the only part of Royal Mail which is making money is GLS? But UKPIL made 608 million in profits in 2015/16 before transformation costs. While it was 7 million lower than in 2014/15 its still profit. While letter volumes have decreased by 10 billion items since 2007, the revenue for 2007/08 was 6,830 billion with only £3million profit. Now revenues stand at 7,661 billion. And profit of £608 million thats not bad for a company dealing with its core business being in terminal decline.

My point is lets not confuse people into believing Royal mail isn't making money,It is making money. We have come along way since 2007 with seen massive changes. Now again we find ourselves fighting RM from turning the clock back on all the terms and condition we have fought hard for over the years gone by. This was meant to be talks about our pensions then we get hit with all this. I for one stand by my union and thank them for the terms that we have now. But lets make sure we don't throw them away!

Agree totally. GLS made about 150 million of that 608 million profit. So where did the rest of it come from? Not from selling off buildings as that money isn`t included
in the annual figures.

The 608million was just from Royalmail. GLS was 150 million on top of that. Total group profits were 742 million before transformation costs. Royal Mail is making near 2 million profit a day! And one off sales of property are not included in end of year reports.

[daveyeff]

RM know nearly all of these proposals don't stand a cat in hells chance of getting in. union negotiators will reject them and a vote for strike action will see them all but pulled. the one they really want in is monthly pay. so when everything else is pulled it will seem like monthly pay is a good deal, as long as we don't get the rest of their proposals in. which they knew all along would have no chance. then they've got what they really wanted. AGAIN!!

[deltaforce]

Quote from gb93

7.5% pay rise over 3 years with 4 hour reduction in working week or something even better won't be given for nothing.
We have to concede something or just go to strike (without guarantee of getting better) all I'm saying is I'm prepared to take a hit with some legacy payments to protect & improve everything else we have got.

Okay gb93 as you say You're prepared to take a hit with some legacy payments! so let just look at it a little bit closer.
Some of these guys who have the "Legacy payments" which you are willing to give up on their behalf are theirs by right as they endured all the changes placed upon them when major changes were forced through in 2000 and many many of them lost a lot of earnings.
To facilitate the changes that RM wanted, it was with the hard work and goodwill of these guys who had to stick to a strict set of agreed processes which included staying on duties, shifts etc.. to which RM put in writing that these legacy payments were in perpetuity.
They are the guys who stand to lose a lot of income which they earned through the years, when they had to go through the changes imposed on them from the "Way Forward" agreement, which to reduce could be devastating to a fellow worker who has a mortgage taken out on their level of wages.

So to go back to what "You are prepared to take a hit with" let's just ask what are you giving up?

I've been here through all the changes you mention & took the hits along the way the same.
I would take another fairly big hit again if the allowances went again.
But as I have said in previous post it has been the unions position for years to increase the basic pay at the cost of allowances so what's changed.
Every pay deal rm will use these allowances. There will come a time shortly when most won't be on these allowances & they will be given away for nothing as newish members won't see it as their battle.
Let's get something now for them & at the same time have all members on parity so rm can't use them as tactics to divide us.

I think RMs plan is to take money out of the wage bill not give it back again in another guise. I also with many others gave up shift allowances and d2d money's and sat premiums for a delivery supplement. You want us to give this up plus the RRIS payment ,to make this fairer to those who wasn't there to give it up in the first place.

[deltaforce]

RM know nearly all of these proposals don't stand a cat in hells chance of getting in. union negotiators will reject them and a vote for strike action will see them all but pulled. the one they really want in is monthly pay. so when everything else is pulled it will seem like monthly pay is a good deal, as long as we don't get the rest of their proposals in. which they knew all along would have no chance. then they've got what they really wanted. AGAIN!!

I think they are serious this time. The shareholders are the masters now. They may not get all they want in one chunk. They will be probably be happy if most of its achieved over the next 5 years.

[fishtank]

You can't take the moral high ground over legacy payments, In the vast majority of cases what a legacy payment meant was that the guys coming after you got f**k all for doing the same job.

[stephen500]

Pensions
It is important to recognise that the CWUs pension proposals are for ALL Royal Mail employees represented by the CWU, no matter if you’ve been employed 1 week, 1 year, 10, 20 or 30 years and above. It is the CWUs belief that we should all be treated the same and that we should all have the opportunity to secure a decent income when we retire.
If it is CWUs belief that everyone is treated the same if been employed 1 week or 30 years why fight hard for legacy payments.
Why should someone who drove 20 year ago get a driving allowance but someone who has for 15 years or less does not. Why should people in an office who have less than 5 years not get a monthly bonus for doing exact same work.
Let's get a decent deal for all & that means some of these old payments are worth giving up.
If you want new members to fight for coditions let's level it up a bit.

Level it up! I stand to lose £42 per week in legacy payments and £5000 per annum in pensionable allowances. You don't sell out one member to help another.

With 7.5% the £42 would be very nearly caught back not withstanding the 4 hours less a week you would be working.
I said the pension proposal was totally unacceptable plus your pensionable allowance would go up with your basic pay so wouldn't be losing £5000
For the last 15 years or so the union have been giving up allowances for increases in basic pay what's the difference this time.

Another 3 years of waiting for my wages to catch up to 2016 levels. Even worse than the 4 years marking time I did under the way forward in 2000

[stephen500]

You can't take the moral high ground over legacy payments, In the vast majority of cases what a legacy payment meant was that the guys coming after you got f**k all for doing the same job.

Or in my case, I got to keep the allowance I already had.

[themaze]

The trouble is fighting to protect the legacy payments is going to destroy the union.

RM are going to be looking to EVR off the older members so that'll leave us with a large amount of new staff on totally different terms and conditions and a smaller amount of mid-long term staff.

Why would the new workforce join a union when there on worse terms than the established posties ?

[stephen500]

The trouble is fighting to protect the legacy payments is going to destroy the union.

RM are going to be looking to EVR off the older members so that'll leave us with a large amount of new staff on totally different terms and conditions and a smaller amount of mid-long term staff.

Why would the new workforce join a union when there on worse terms than the established posties ?

So we sell out exisiting members rights fought for under past agreements?
You try seeing a £42 wage cut per week.