Royal Mail's proposals in the current pay, pensions and change strategy negotiations

[fishtank]

We do not need to at this moment rush into a strike ballot , the pension won't be changed to April 2018

So members should just accept the position of not having a clue whether they'll be able to eat when they retire just so the union can pick a more advantageous time to strike? This isn't a trivial game of bravado dingo and every day members don't know what their pension will look like is another day of stress.

The pension situation needs to be resolved as soon as possible and if that means striking now then so be it, the rest of the stuff most of which is a wishlist not a serious collection of proposals we'll deal with separately.

[gb93]

So what is your counter proposal dingo.
And by the way I would lose a lot of money in legacy payments & don't particularly like the idea of monthly pay.
But you keep telling us on here to get real changes are inevitable & how letters volumes are down & rm not making profit.
What would you give up to stop the pension raid & sick pay raid

[jetblack]

So what is your counter proposal dingo.

I have no idea what Dingo's counter proposal is.

But what I would say is that, strategically, rather than the union merely acting in response, defensively, to an attack, it would make sense to push for advancements in members terms and conditions.
Protecting whats already ours isn't quite the same.
RM make threats - we are made aware of the threats - we concede 10% pa. and think we've done well getting away with the other 90%. Until next time.

RM ? - they don't concede.

[gb93]

[quote="POSTMAN"]








Pensions
It is important to recognise that the CWUs pension proposals are for ALL Royal Mail employees represented by the CWU, no matter if you’ve been employed 1 week, 1 year, 10, 20 or 30 years and above. It is the CWUs belief that we should all be treated the same and that we should all have the opportunity to secure a decent income when we retire.
If it is CWUs belief that everyone is treated the same if been employed 1 week or 30 years why fight hard for legacy payments.
Why should someone who drove 20 year ago get a driving allowance but someone who has for 15 years or less does not. Why should people in an office who have less than 5 years not get a monthly bonus for doing exact same work.
Let's get a decent deal for all & that means some of these old payments are worth giving up.
If you want new members to fight for coditions let's level it up a bit.

[Martin Walsh]

Fish it is about winning if you strike and I have led strikes in the summer and it can be disheartening to see so ligule backlog where we know it will hurt them more in the autumn pressure period. Including the share price which they seem more concerned with. But hey if the members want a ballot in the summer and signal that well I am up for that as well.

In terms of what my proposal is : well when you go in negotiations you don't compromise at the first set of proposals and I would reject the following

No cuts to legacy payments ,RRIS , TPM

No to monthly pay

No to cuts to sick pay

No to cuts to new starters terms and conditions

No to changes to the attendance procedure or MTSF or the IR framework including removal of Area Reps

I would be up for a range of trails including some of our ideas and not just Royal Mail's strategy. We can look at effirency and we can look at capturing more of the same day next day parcels market based on incentivising those who would volunteer later starts.

Remember they have put three options on the table

Stay the same and manage decline

Move to later delivery and cut costs

Or buy cheaper parcel companies and get them to do the profitable part of the Mail buy paying those less.

We have to first force them to change the above vision and we don't do that by accepting their slash and burn policy.

[gb93]

So what is your counter proposal dingo.

I have no idea what Dingo's counter proposal is.

But what I would say is that, strategically, rather than the union merely acting in response, defensively, to an attack, it would make sense to push for advancements in members terms and conditions.
Protecting whats already ours isn't quite the same.
RM make threats - we are made aware of the threats - we concede 10% pa. and think we've done well getting away with the other 90%. Until next time.

RM ? - they don't concede.

7.5% pay rise over 3 years with 4 hour reduction in working week or something even better won't be given for nothing.
We have to concede something or just go to strike (without guarantee of getting better) all I'm saying is I'm prepared to take a hit with some legacy payments to protect & improve everything else we have got.

[jaxx]

A few observations from the Briefing today !

Royal Mail want to cut costs , the only part of Royal Mail which is making money is GLS.

In 2007 Royal Mail delivered 23 billion letters costing 5 pence

In 2016 Royal Mail delivered 13 billion letters at 12 pence per item

They expect in 10 years letters will be 7 billion and the cost per item will be 22 pence.

Parcels traffic below shoe boxed has flatlined ,

You say the only part of Royal Mail which is making money is GLS? But UKPIL made 608 million in profits in 2015/16 before transformation costs. While it was 7 million lower than in 2014/15 its still profit. While letter volumes have decreased by 10 billion items since 2007, the revenue for 2007/08 was 6,830 billion with only £3million profit. Now revenues stand at 7,661 billion. And profit of £608 million thats not bad for a company dealing with its core business being in terminal decline.

My point is lets not confuse people into believing Royal mail isn't making money,It is making money. We have come along way since 2007 with seen massive changes. Now again we find ourselves fighting RM from turning the clock back on all the terms and condition we have fought hard for over the years gone by. This was meant to be talks about our pensions then we get hit with all this. I for one stand by my union and thank them for the terms that we have now. But lets make sure we don't throw them away!

Agree totally. GLS made about 150 million of that 608 million profit. So where did the rest of it come from? Not from selling off buildings as that money isn`t included
in the annual figures.

[worktotime]

Fish it is about winning if you strike and I have led strikes in the summer and it can be disheartening to see so ligule backlog where we know it will hurt them more in the autumn pressure period. Including the share price which they seem more concerned with. But hey if the members want a ballot in the summer and signal that well I am up for that as well.

In terms of what my proposal is : well when you go in negotiations you don't compromise at the first set of proposals and I would reject the following

No cuts to legacy payments ,RRIS , TPM

No to monthly pay

No to cuts to sick pay

No to cuts to new starters terms and conditions

No to changes to the attendance procedure or MTSF or the IR framework including removal of Area Reps

I would be up for a range of trails including some of our ideas and not just Royal Mail's strategy. We can look at effirency and we can look at capturing more of the same day next day parcels market based on incentivising those who would volunteer later starts.

Remember they have put three options on the table

Stay the same and manage decline

Move to later delivery and cut costs

Or buy cheaper parcel companies and get them to do the profitable part of the Mail buy paying those less.

We have to first force them to change the above vision and we don't do that by accepting their slash and burn policy.

no area reps which I don't agree with but then no need for area mangers then , theres a massive saving ? NO to 7 day a week , NO to covering sick , days off , leave with no o/t payment for them that want it ? and if and when we do strike lets go all out , and no 1 day here and 1 day there , s**t or bust in mho .

[bustedflush]

My Lord, those RM proposals are sick, worse than I first envisaged. The new starters bit stinks, you'll be a second-tier worker for 3 years, totally outrageous.

This is why you guys might take note of my proposition made a few pages back, that they are intending to lose many older workers if and when this goes through, via ER and EVR.

Remember this wouldn't strictly have to be done via the Union or in any agreement as its an ad-hoc offer and purely voluntary to the recipients of it.

Mark my words that the intent of savaging new starters' wages and rights for an insane 3 years is to have them (CHEAPLY) replacing thousands of FT 50-55+'s with the cost of those pay-offs being recovered over the short-medium term by decimating the wages, rights and contractual hours of those whom replace them.

I guarantee you that if some, most (or not all, surely!) of this nonsense ever gets signed off by the Union (thus you guys still there) that within 6 months to a year there will be a 'surprise' generous offer for thousands of older workers to leave early from RM.

Then happy days for RM, they've removed thousands of higher-paid mainly FT 'oldies' with their DB pension liability and replaced them with younger people on short-hours 'flexible' contracts with hugely reduced costs regarding holiday pay, sickness and rota week off pay - and to boot for the first 3 years (what the average one would probably last far less than) they will have earned about 13-14% less than a new starter lasting 3 years at present would have.

One advantage of having left is I have an unobstructed view of the chess board here, and can see where they have laid and moved their pawns to. Believe me, they are playing the 'clearance sacrifice' here and you guys via the CWU need a Sicilian defence - desperately.

[TheTrolleyMan]

IT all sounds like one way flexibility to me

[stephen500]

Pensions
It is important to recognise that the CWUs pension proposals are for ALL Royal Mail employees represented by the CWU, no matter if you’ve been employed 1 week, 1 year, 10, 20 or 30 years and above. It is the CWUs belief that we should all be treated the same and that we should all have the opportunity to secure a decent income when we retire.
If it is CWUs belief that everyone is treated the same if been employed 1 week or 30 years why fight hard for legacy payments.
Why should someone who drove 20 year ago get a driving allowance but someone who has for 15 years or less does not. Why should people in an office who have less than 5 years not get a monthly bonus for doing exact same work.
Let's get a decent deal for all & that means some of these old payments are worth giving up.
If you want new members to fight for coditions let's level it up a bit.

Level it up! I stand to lose £42 per week in legacy payments and £5000 per annum in pensionable allowances. You don't sell out one member to help another.

[osgoody1970]

did not the first thing we believed would happen, when they privatised the post, is exactly what is happening with these proposals!!! the CWU were not stupid, when they insisted on the last pay deal for 3 years!!! it stopped them(royal mail) doing this, right from the start, I hope these proposals give the CWU one hell of a membership boost!!!

[Celtic Postman]

Quote from gb93

7.5% pay rise over 3 years with 4 hour reduction in working week or something even better won't be given for nothing.
We have to concede something or just go to strike (without guarantee of getting better) all I'm saying is I'm prepared to take a hit with some legacy payments to protect & improve everything else we have got.

Okay gb93 as you say You're prepared to take a hit with some legacy payments! so let just look at it a little bit closer.
Some of these guys who have the "Legacy payments" which you are willing to give up on their behalf are theirs by right as they endured all the changes placed upon them when major changes were forced through in 2000 and many many of them lost a lot of earnings.
To facilitate the changes that RM wanted, it was with the hard work and goodwill of these guys who had to stick to a strict set of agreed processes which included staying on duties, shifts etc.. to which RM put in writing that these legacy payments were in perpetuity.
They are the guys who stand to lose a lot of income which they earned through the years, when they had to go through the changes imposed on them from the "Way Forward" agreement, which to reduce could be devastating to a fellow worker who has a mortgage taken out on their level of wages.

So to go back to what "You are prepared to take a hit with" let's just ask what are you giving up?

[citypostie]

Like i asked before the thing the cwu will weigh up if they decide to negotiate on legacy payments is how many members receive them. If the majority of members don't (most members are in deliveries) the chances are the vote would go in favour of them being sacrificed. Supposedly the walking men voted in favour of swaping roughly £40+ a week for d2d for the delivery supplement so I'm sure a little bung would definitely get it agreed to

[Whysoslowyehcfc]

If night allowance goes, no one will bother doing them as a duty, our Dom has been trying to get rid of them since he arrived in the office, BUT when asked how he would clear the 40 or so Yorks of packets he didn't know