CWU support of Jeremy Corbyn

[Tman]

You've clearly learnt from Diane Abbott....if the facts aren't palatable then just change the parameters.
A "marginal"...for eighty years?

[fishtank]

A marginal.

You're right it is.
A Tory marginal.

[Tman]

Some political commentator made a very valid point on TV last night, namely Jezza only ever speaks to groups and meetings which think as he does; Momentum, European socialist alliances etc, when he should be speaking to the undecided, unsures etc. in this country.
So add "gutless" to his other very long list of negative attributes.
Looks like Brother David is about to throw his hat into the ring though, so maybe Jezza ought to start packing his Castro and Mao posters away ready for (the now inevitable) removal day..

[dvbuk55]

Looks like Brother David is about to throw his hat into the ring though, so maybe Jezza ought to start packing his Castro and Mao posters away ready for (the now inevitable) removal day..

I thought it was a pity he wasn't chosen as leader instead of his brother. If I'm honest I think his time has gone. There are two things telling against him, that he is a former Blairite and the way he behaved after he lost the leadership election.

I wonder what future opinions of Jezza will be after the debacle of his leadership is dissected and what his band of Corbynistas will do when their leader has been consigned to the has been bin.

[jetblack]

You can't consign ideas to the scrap heap chaps.

Not unless those ideas have been shown to be riddled with either contradictions or tautologies (or both) - and you haven't managed to do that in this extensive thread so far, so I'm not holding out much hope. You have, instead, concentrated on personalities - a much easier target.

The ideas that JC espouses are not helped in their promulgation by a ridiculously biased national broadcaster and press. Donald Trump has got this much right at least.



As for leaders, well, I ought to let you into a little secret here chaps - men don't follow leaders, sheep do.



Good luck with David Miliband

[dvbuk55]

You can't consign ideas to the scrap heap chaps.

As for leaders, well, I ought to let you into a little secret here chaps - men don't follow leaders, sheep do.

Well what would you class Corbyn, men don't follow him because he is a leader in name only and the ideas he has are merely 70s left wing ideas regurgitated.

[fishtank]

Corbyn's primary function is to lead the Labour party Jet.
He wasn't elected to make policy, that's the job of the party unless you are arguing for some kind of benign dictatorship so given that his personal political thoughts are just that...personal, what else do you suppose we judge him on other than his supposed leadership skills?

He was elected to lead.
He's a crap leader.
Get over it.

[jetblack]

Corbyn's primary function is to lead the Labour party Jet.
He wasn't elected to make policy, that's the job of the party unless you are arguing for some kind of benign dictatorship so given that his personal political thoughts are just that...personal, what else do you suppose we judge him on other than his supposed leadership skills?

The quality of his character ? That which he stands for, and has stood for in the face of adversity ?

He's not a swashbuckler I'll grant you - he's not Errol Flyn as Robin Hood, he's not John Wayne. Neither is he a male model. Neither does he have a fake plastic smile.

The whole "leader" thing is an interesting subject. I think the academics tell us that leadership can be based on different things. It can be charismatic leadership, yes. But it can also be based on both tradition and upon authority.
A leader is, for me, more than anything else someone who is in the right place at the right time and who captures the zeitgiest. It doesn't really matter about the cut of his suit - its wether he encapsulates, through his ideas, the prevailing moment of the times. Only history will tell wether JC does or not - but FWIW I'd say that JC's leadership is based upon authority - authority granted him by his authenticity, him being the real deal. And being the "real deal" in 21st century politics seems to me a quality that is in very short supply indeed.

He was elected to lead.
Crap leader.
Get over it.

He was elected, Get over it.



BTW wasn't the Stoke result a good snub in the nose for all the pundits that thought the political landscape had changed irrevocably - who thought UKIP were a serious threat to Labour in their own post industrial heartlands.
You know, those that would have wet their pants with glee at Labour losing Stoke.

You know the sort I mean don't you comrades ?

[dvbuk55]

Corbin doesn't have a plastic smile he has a plastic smirk. Compared to Jezza, John Major was the life and soul of the party despite his nickname as the the grey man.

[clashcityrocker]

A leader is, for me, more than anything else someone who is in the right place at the right time

Gary Lineker?

[fishtank]

A leader more than anything must unite those he/she is tasked with leading.
It's not a reasonable argument to just throw your hands up and say they don't want to be united, in that case you've just picked the wrong leader.

You could attempt to fill the ranks with like-minded people but there are two inherent risks with this policy, the first is that there are no longer any checks and balances as to whether you're heading in the right direction and the second is much more dangerous, can you really trust that a bunch of nodding dogs aren't just nodding along to further their own agenda?

The Labour party must be made up of diverse opinions and in my personal opinion momentum and Corbyn have done more than anyone to try to stifle this, it's their way or you're just a blairite/red tory.

At the end of the day you can't make people unite behind you, they have to believe in what you stand for even if they don't always agree with the means to achieve it. Corbyn can't even unite the party, never mind the country.

[jetblack]

A leader is, for me, more than anything else someone who is in the right place at the right time

Gary Lineker?

LOL

What I was meaning was kind of in the right place historically.

I've got to be honest, I think the whole notion of the leader, and their significance, is massively overblown. But we go along with it cos its easy, and we love a soap opera.
Really there is a very thin line indeed between the will of the people and those in the positions of power. If there is a chasm then the leader doesn't last. On the other hand, the leader can be a right arsehole, but if the will of the people is being done, then the negative qualities are avidly overlooked (Thatcher for eg.). The sucessful leader is almost accidental. It must be the same thing as accidentally writing a hit song or book - you have, apparently, no idea at the time that its being created that it will be such a hit.
Yes - I think that fits Corbyn well - The Accidental Leader.

Tell you whats muddying the waters a bit though - the appalling narrative that the BBC (in particular) is setting ie. will he resign/will he resign/will he resign. They are desperate to see him go. Who is pulling their strings I wonder ? It isn't disaffected voters in post industrial heartlands, thats for sure.

Whats the role of the media in creating the will of the people - thats the question. Covert advertising for the status quo. Trump is right.

OK here's a question for you - is Trump a good leader ?

[dvbuk55]

It isn't disaffected voters in post industrial heartlands, thats for sure. OK here's a question for you - is Trump a good leader ?

Well the disaffected voters in Copeland saw off the blarney that is the Corbyn labour policies.

Is Trump a good leader? In my opinion he is, not least of all because he IS a leader of a nation. He has attempted to fulfill the promises he made before he was elected whether those decisions were right or wrong he is trying to make good his promises. He is not afraid of speaking about the elephant in the room such as immigration, the shortfall in the financial contribution to NATO and making sure other nations cannot ride roughshod over industrial America. When he says America first he means it and what's more the people believe it.

[Tman]

Jet's mugging you off. Now the argument is about Trump as he's successfully diverted the thread away from the utter walking disaster that is Corbyn.
He's tried the "blame the messenger" tactic, the "blame the BBC" tactic, the "what is a leader?" tactic, and now Trump.
He clearly doesn't want to say that he backed a loser, nor acknowledge that Corbyn is a pointless unattractive tw*t to traditional labour voters.
Shame that arsehole Nuttall was such a fantasist and lost Stoke, as with two by-election hammerings Corbyn may have been pushed out now rather than later..

[baldrick]

Where's dear old jet and his sidekick?

Do you mean me by any chance?
Yes Copeland was a defeat. But one battle is not the end of the war. Good job you and dvbuk weren't around at the time of Dunkirk.
The reality is that Copeland was a marginal, albeit held by Labour for many years. The highest majority Labour ever got there was 58% in 1997, when there was a Labour landslide everywhere after the long Thatcher years.
Since then the Labour vote declined by 6.4% in 2001 as disillusionment with the Blair New Labour Government began to set in.
It declined by another 1,3% in 2005, again under Blair.
It declined by 4.5% in 2010 under Brown (New Labour).
Another decline of 3.7% in 2010 under Milliband (New Labour).
It has declined by another 4.9% in last week's byelection, but this is part of a long term decline due to many factors, not just Corbyn.
The Conservative candidate won largely because people who voted UKIP in 2015 seem to have switched to May's Tories. The UKIP vote fell from 15.5% in 2015 to 6.5% last week. A fall of 9%. The Conservatives vote increased by 8.5%.

Yes Labour has to work out why people are voting for right wing parties which are going to attack their public services and living standards, and how to counter that. But it wouldn't have mattered much whether it was Corbyn or any of the other leadership candidates had been Leader last week. The problem is a long seated one, going back to the disappointment and disillusionment with Blair's New Labour, and it is going to take time to repair that damage.