Greedy Posties

Post by **bustedflush** » 28 Dec 2016, 12:08

It's a bit disingenuous to use the term 'better' without quantifying it, as it's so vague and indeed just becomes the same as an opinion. I think in terms of this thread the word 'better' would clearly have some reference to two main criteria - pay and working conditions and satisfaction with them. You are all working for a main income and doing a specific job for it so like-for-like may be hard to compare with other occupations. Being realistic a long-serving OPG would be of an age excluding many entry-level careers like say Police and Services.

So a voluntary position may be far more satisfying to some but impractical for income reasons. A highly-paid shift job working a rotation including weekends and nights etc. may pay more but certainly wouldn't have the satisfaction or same level of self determination your postal round has and you'd work unsociable hours.

So I can only think Judgee has inferred that there are unskilled positions you can find with not too-dissimilar pay and hours and benefits if you look. The thing is there just don't seem to be any which makes me see the term 'better' as glib an unspecific and while I am not asking for a list I would like to see at least one example rather than just semantics around that word....

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 28 Dec 2016, 12:22

What about health busted, very pertinent given your reasons for leaving the business and the impact you claim this job had on your physical and mental health.

mickeymacca · Post by **mickeymacca** » 28 Dec 2016, 12:55

Has your opinion of RM changed since you left Busted? I realise you left on health grounds, but have you had any luck finding anything comparable? and if not has it made you appreciate RM t's and c's?

# not a loaded question, just genuinely interested as I'm getting itchy feet myself.

Post by **bustedflush** » 28 Dec 2016, 13:02

fishtank wrote:What about health busted, very pertinent given your reasons for leaving the business and the impact you claim this job had on your physical and mental health.

Yes, although much of my knee problems may have originated from my no-fault van accident 10 months after I started at RM. As people have stated here the repetitive nature of the job can wear down body parts so this brings me back to the fact I was very grateful for the IHR package which I mentioned back at the time which is another example of why it's difficult to find a 'better' job for similar. I did say to be fair "would I have got that at say xxx a company?" Highly unlikely! So yes, it did have an impact on health as would many manual positions over time but I would agree with you that RM is possibly one of the worst for some people and that will become more apparent over time when the full impact of P&L becomes apparent.

The mental stress simply originated from one thing - uncertainty (which the FT round holders don't have to contend with) arising from the seemingly endless permutations of rounds/colleagues I could be allocated. When on a 'good' job it was the best feeling going, but sometimes it could be hell on certain pairings/jobs.

So a 'better' job for me may have been slightly less pay (say 10% less?) but compensated for with a more stable working environment. Trouble is, even that I can't see any of out there which just reinforces my thoughts in this thread. To tell people to 'stop moaning and find something better' is quite glib and hugely simplistic given the individual postie's specific circumstances.

P.S. Just seen Mickeymacca's post. I was lucky in that alongside RM I was already earning a second income for editing/updating csv files at the back-end of a web network and uploading them plus writing reviews. I simply upped my hours on that so am now self-employed and financially am better-off as I earn a bit more plus work from home so have no petrol travel costs and can claim tax allowance on certain things like a percentage of heating bills and mortgage interest. I didn't touch the IHR money. I did out of interest have a look around the time when I was on sick before the IHR and let's just say a lot of time-served posties would be advised to consider leaving VERY carefully unless money isn't an issue for them. It really IS a 'race to the bottom' as far as employment wages and contracts are concerned.

P.S. I kept my word - in my leaving thread I stated I would always tip my postie from now on as I know what they go through! I slipped my postie a purple one a couple of weeks before Xmas. Sorry, that's a banknote before the obvious wisecracks start!

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 28 Dec 2016, 14:55

See that's the point, yes it's a good job and yes it's reasonably well paid but it has its downsides, it's physically punishing, it can be very stressful and likely to get worse and in some offices the work environment is disgusting. It's a socially destructive work pattern and isn't family friendly at all. So the real answer to Tman's pointless question which was only really put out there so he could "ahh but" his way through the list is that any job is better if you personally ( not some keyboard warrior ) believe it has or will improve your life and that includes flipping burgers for McDs...

Post by **Judgee** » 28 Dec 2016, 14:56

TrueBlueTerrier wrote:Ok. My opinion of what is a better job than being a postman is wrong.

Exactly TBT it's your opinion and therefore cannot be wrong and a perfect example of why it would be pointless me listing jobs that are better than working for RM.

You get it, others here get it.... Tman doesn't and is a lost cause because he has it in his head that I won't list better jobs because he thinks I can't. Refusing to accept it would be pointless because he would then turn around and suggest my view of better jobs was wrong because they would not be better for him!!

I am surprised that when I suggested that bullying and harassment was rife across RM that he didn't want names, dates etc to back that up too!

This is a forum not a degree course Tman you don't have to have written evidence and write down all your sources every time you make a comment just to validate it!

Just for you Tman I will give you just one example, although I have others I will not go into pointless lists.

London Tube driver would be a better job in my eyes. The pay is double and the training free. The hours would be better for some people not necessarily others but that to me would be a better job than RM. Less physically demanding too..... but not necessarily a better job for all posties which is the whole damn point and I do expect you to find fault with that example even though it is an opinion!

Zicomurphy · Post by **Zicomurphy** » 28 Dec 2016, 15:13

Newbie001 wrote:Think at moment in this "race to the bottom" economy, there is definitely a lack of "better" jobs out there. All companies seem to be going through process of part-time, no paid breaks, banking hours, cutting pensions, paying as little as possible. Basically shafting their workers wherever possible. RM is slowly fighting to do the same.
Would I leave in a second if better job came up... Yes. Does wanting more from RM make us greedy.... No. Can't see what's wrong with wanting better working conditions for everyone.

That's the real problem I think. When I got this job in the late '80's I applied for 3 jobs at the same time, got offered all 3 and all 3 were offering similar pay and conditions. Nowadays I think if I left Royal Mail my options would be limited in terms of finding a new job and I'd be very lucky to find anything paying as much and with all the perks we take for granted. it's not that this job is so wonderful just that the job market in general has become more insecure and a lot of employers have no qualms taking advantage of the unskilled labour market by paying minimum wage, offering zero hour contracts, no sick pay, no holiday pay, no pension etc. I know the CWU aren't perfect but remove them from the equation and see how quickly Royal Mail follow suit with our pay, terms and conditions. So, no, I don't think postmen are greedy, just lucky to work in a heavily unionised industry.

mickeymacca · Post by **mickeymacca** » 28 Dec 2016, 15:55

Thanks for your perspective Bustedflush,

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 28 Dec 2016, 16:43

Exactly TBT it's your opinion and therefore cannot be wrong and a perfect example of why it would be pointless me listing jobs that are better than working for RM.

You get it, others here get it.... Tman doesn't and is a lost cause because he has it in his head that I won't list better jobs because he thinks I can't. Refusing to accept it would be pointless because he would then turn around and suggest my view of better jobs was wrong because they would not be better for him!!

I am surprised that when I suggested that bullying and harassment was rife across RM that he didn't want names, dates etc to back that up too!

This is a forum not a degree course Tman you don't have to have written evidence and write down all your sources every time you make a comment just to validate it!

Just for you Tman I will give you just one example, although I have others I will not go into pointless lists.

London Tube driver would be a better job in my eyes. The pay is double and the training free. The hours would be better for some people not necessarily others but that to me would be a better job than RM. Less physically demanding too..... but not bl;ah blah de blah blahs.

Not at all. For once in this thread you've actually partially validated your original expansive claim about better jobs.
Well done you..... but for the rest of the post above "methinks you doth protest too much".
{Think how much time you could've saved if you'd just said from the outset..."Tube train driver would be one good example", but no, go off on padded out tangents about Christ knows what.Jeez, hard work or what?}

Post by **Judgee** » 28 Dec 2016, 17:32

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 28 Dec 2016, 18:19

You got that right anyway...

Post by **woopesh** » 28 Dec 2016, 20:12

Surreypostie wrote:RM is basically a decent firm, it is difficult to get the sack if you are ill or make a genuine mistake. The Terms and conditions are not bad, bloody good in comparison to some of our competitors. We don't have to like however, the direction the company is now taking. A 2 tier workforce, those of us lucky enough to be fulltime and on permanant contracts and the new guys, shafted daily, no security at all, we all do the same job. When one of us leaves we are replaced by one of them, putting more pressure on the former. Nobody complains for the sake of it, it is because there have been many changes over the years, not many are a benefit to the customer, not the people we deliver to anyway. Everything is for the benefit of the shareholder now and I really don't get it. If I buy shares in RM, I get the shares, the people I buy them off get the money and a middle man get the commission for the transaction, RM get f*** all out of it. Later if I sell those shares, I get the money, someone else now owns the shares, another middleman get a cut from the sale and again RM get f*** all out of it. Personally, I don't give a damn about the shareholders, I do give a damn about the public we serve. That is why the majority of us moan.

RM is made up of people who want to be rewarded for their work. A lot of the top tier management will be paid partly (a significant part, in the tens or hundreds of thousands of £) in shares. They will want to see the price of those rise so they can buy other things. They will also want dividends from those shares. Paying dividends generally requires the company to be in profit. Even if the management DIDN'T own shares, they would be paid by people who DO own shares. If you owned RM who would you likely pay more? A manager increasing the share price and making sure the company has enough profits to pay out dividends? Or a manager who puts the profits into staffing etc and doesn't pay dividends and doesn't show much profitability, because well, its all going towards staffing costs? The simple fact is EVERYONE is in it to get the most they can out of the company / system that is Royal Mail. That we are posties and are at the bottom of the food chain, of course we are the first to get shafted and of course we have the right to moan. Moya isn't sitting up there wondering how she is going to make our lives easier and the posties job more pleasant. She is up there wondering how much value she can get out of us, because ultimately her pay depends on it.

Post by **woopesh** » 28 Dec 2016, 20:42

bustedflush wrote:For unskilled work at 10-11 quid per hour, what IS better?

OK, you could get that on a permanent nightshift. Bad for your health and likely stuck in one noisy factory or warehouse very regimented. I'd say not better.

Not in a shop, not in a factory or likely much else doing a dayshift. Remember we are talking UNSKILLED!

Paramedic? Bus driver? Train for that, similar money but shiftwork, and in none of those positons would you be allowed to bugger-off home early, have a coffee or smoke when you wanted, same with your break.

I've had a good think about this, and a general look and I can say safely thus far that a dayshift unskilled position where you can get unquestioned sick pay, IHR package after 6 months, bonus at Xmas, freedom to plan your own day and breaks as well as a chance to work 34 hours while being paid for 39 if you feel like upping the pace a bit plus possibly a good pile of tips at Xmas AND £11 an hour to boot and not forgetting travelling to work before the morning rush and home before the evening rush ARE LIKE ROCKING HORSE $HIT!!

So yeah, I'd also like to hear of intrinsically 'better' equivalent jobs. I agree that Judgee can't name any.

My friends who work in shops earn more than £11 an hour, especially over Xmas. They earn minimum wage but this is topped up by 2% commissions on sales. One of my friends worked for a well known clothes retailer and took home £28,000 a year. She was telling me people in luxury goods stores can easily take over £50,000.

Also estate agents and car salesmen can earn a lot if they are good at selling. I met one estate agent on £35,000 a year, who had no qualifications. I know that the same is possible in car showrooms.

Infact I think if you have the right sort of disposition (amicable, friendly, good at talking, presentable etc) you would do a lot better in practically any sales job OUTSIDE Royal Mail.

I also think being a postie is a semi skilled job. It took me 8 months to get upto a decent speed. Sure it would have been faster if I was actually trained but that I was kicked out to learn by myself doesn't change the fact being a postie has a months long learning curve.

Post by **bustedflush** » 28 Dec 2016, 21:19

Funnily enough the Tube Driver was the only one I could think of too, but that is valid only in a certain area of the UK. If you can match it in shops/sales that's fine but you won't unless there's some sort of commission structure as stated in the Whoopesh post. Sales jobs like that tend to be filled by younger persons with a certain kind of suave about them. They are however two possibilities so at least the thread seems more objective now.

It is also worth mentioning the RM pension is probably better than you'll get in most other occupations if you are a long-timer at present.

So the individual postie weighs up a quite detailed list of pros and cons before making a decision.

Age? Pay? Working environment? Level of autonomy in the work? Pension? Sick scheme? Uniform? Hours? Start/finish times? Type of colleagues?

It isn't easy to jump from the proverbial frying pan and a decision made in haste may cost you in the longer term.

Post by **woopesh** » 28 Dec 2016, 21:26

bustedflush wrote: Sales jobs like that tend to be filled by younger persons with a certain kind of suave about them.

This is true. My friend who works in retail, she is really quite attractive and is good at making people feel good about themselves. My wife hates her guts.

Actually, on that basis, my wife would probably love my RM managers!