is it time to take a stand over the overtime/working for free issue?

[Postie45]

Ok. I start at 7, FTimer starts at 7. We both prep for an hour, he goes off to sort for 30 mins or so. In that time i continue to prep mine and help finish his. We do delivery, my finish time should 12.30, his is 2 pm. We finish at 1pm. I get an extra hour and a half for coming in early/going over (thats if im paid or the manager agrees to it). He gets to finish an hour early and still get paid.

(It varies daily incase you are wondering why the math doesnt add up)

Ive nothing against the Full timer(s) personally

But it doest sit right with me that i start and finish the same time and get paid less for doing the same job.

I get how this is annoying to you, but its not really the issue. You need to concentrate on the not getting paid OT or being pressured into it more than what your colleagues are "getting away with" - as well as not really being your concern how much someone else is being paid, its just a bad battle to be fighting both your colleagues and the management.

[andyjackpot]

I must be in a good office

every single minute of overtime we worked - we get paid for end off

No arguments no hassle

only problem occurs when you forget to forecast it.

But I have never ever experinced or heard about in our office of working for "free"

[Postie45]

I must be in a good office

every single minute of overtime we worked - we get paid for end off

No arguments no hassle

only problem occurs when you forget to forecast it.

But I have never ever experinced or heard about in our office of working for "free"

yeah this isnt a national issue, its a local one.

[Northblue82]

I wouldn't be starting work any earlier than my contracted hours especially if it hasn't been agreed beforehand, and I certainly won't go over my working hours to please management.

[Newbie001]

Ok. I start at 7, FTimer starts at 7. We both prep for an hour, he goes off to sort for 30 mins or so. In that time i continue to prep mine and help finish his. We do delivery, my finish time should 12.30, his is 2 pm. We finish at 1pm. I get an extra hour and a half for coming in early/going over (thats if im paid or the manager agrees to it). He gets to finish an hour early and still get paid.

(It varies daily incase you are wondering why the math doesnt add up)

Ive nothing against the Full timer(s) personally

But it doest sit right with me that i start and finish the same time and get paid less for doing the same job.

I get how this is annoying to you, but its not really the issue. You need to concentrate on the not getting paid OT or being pressured into it more than what your colleagues are "getting away with" - as well as not really being your concern how much someone else is being paid, its just a bad battle to be fighting both your colleagues and the management.

And here lies everything thats wrong with RM.
It's ok for Full-timer to get 39 hrs or if they work day off as many do 46+ hrs. And in reality they'll work 35-40 hrs over the week, some even less than that. But part-timers have to fight for every single minute. But not to worry, if part-timer is not happy he can just cut-off and full-timer will get couple of hours "ghost" docket for doing an extra loop or so that part-timer was unable to do. Whole things a farce.
Sooner we time in and out with PDAs the better.

[shayanboon]

Same problem here p/t subsidising partners o/t by taking up the slack

[Postie45]

And here lies everything thats wrong with RM.
It's ok for Full-timer to get 39 hrs or if they work day off as many do 46+ hrs. And in reality they'll work 35-40 hrs over the week, some even less than that. But part-timers have to fight for every single minute. But not to worry, if part-timer is not happy he can just cut-off and full-timer will get couple of hours "ghost" docket for doing an extra loop or so that part-timer was unable to do. Whole things a farce.
Sooner we time in and out with PDAs the better.

or the part timer could have done the OT.... Also you do understand the contracts people signed up for ? one is called part time for a reason, full time hours arent guaranteed and shouldnt be expected. The full timers are guaranteed those 39 hours pay as thats what they were signed up for, the fact that they can finish early is a RM managements problem on efficiency. Should the managers fix that ? yes they probably should where it happens for their sake. How does that actually affect a PT other than a bit of jealousy though ? I`ll also add many FT also cut off and dont complete so you cant say FT have this easy life of making 7+ hours a week, maybe in your office, but its not everywhere.
My point was its a bad idea to fight both management and colleagues as an individual or you`ll very quickly find yourself the most hated person in the office with nowhere to turn. My advice was to go after the part of the job that is being directly affected - ie the non payment of overtime worked.

[Pompey Boy]

There are two sides to every story. I was chatting to one of our hybrid guys the other day. They come in at 9 and the 318 says their walk should be prepped by their partner. Poor bloke didn't realise that this could never happen. So he always goes out late and gets back late. Then it's straight onto his 3 1/2 hour collection without a break. Quite often guvnors will ask him to come in early and then the collections manager will ask him to do docket at the other end of his duty (they already work a 9 hour day). Didn't realise this and alot of us just see the hybrid guys swanning in at 9. Thinking about it these duties could only work if they did 3 or 4 loops, which would give them time to prep and have a break.

Now onto part timers. Have chatted to a few of these guys. Most have reasons for wanting to work part time and just want to work their hours, although there are some who want docket. They are ALL being bullied into working over their hours (by being given loads of stuff to take out and being told that they can't bring it back) so that walks get done.

It's all a sorry mess and I have to say that CWU aren't without blame. Basically the guvnors want us bitching against each other and it's not the way to go.

[tommyrep]

A good relevant post from Sophie. Reading some of the responses is typical of the problems that exist and are allowed to fester. The issues raised only re-in force the nasty aspects of many RM managers and is rife, nationwide. All the "man up" advice is missing the point. The union should realise that these are the sort of everyday problems experienced in delivery. It is not simply a local problem as some have said. Advice like , "just cut off" may work in stronger offices, the reality is most smaller DOs are managed by tyrants who exploit poor un supported staff who feel unable to challenge the bully managers. They need support and within our union it is sadly, sadly lacking. Leadership from the top is required, they must be aware of the daily onslaught experienced by staff yet sit back and allow it to happen. Witnesses to bullying that do not offer support to colleagues and run them down accusing them of weakness are truly no better than the RM managers who dish out their evil practices. We are Large union, our members deserve better. No one should work under duress, many of our colleagues only give credence to RM management - we're our own worst enemy. It sickens me to witness my own colleagues helping RM to destroy the remaining low morale of down trodden members.

[bustedflush]

puzzled ? you did 10hrs overtime off your own back for free?
only 1 person to blame i'm afraid

Where did i say that?
I said i did 29 hours and worked with a full timer who will be getting 39 hours dispite only working 29 hours too

Hang on - the FT person would be doing prep/IPS/frame before you started. Sounds like 29 hours is throw-off, bundle and deliver yes? Or just delivery? (being Christmas as 22 hours contract normally would just be bundle and walk).

It's quite usual for a FT to do his prep and delivery in 29 hours, as the other 10 hours are office-based, which you don't have on a 22-hrs contract.

Something doesn't add-up here as unless he/she did office work before you started they wouldn't be FT.

Anyway, aside from that you now have a permanent contract so USE IT to your advantage. Insist from now on you want dropping back on your time UNTIL all the outstanding OT has been entered on the system to your satisfaction. Once that's done, state you want a procedure agreed with the DIM to extend, including a sheet to sign and fill every time you are back late with the minutes/hours you are claiming. I can't see why this isn't in place and effective already. Say you are fed-up with the aggro of claiming, and as you are so cr*p or slow he/she will surely not want you there longer than necessary so surely won't want you doing any extra hours from now-on.

Trust me the DIMs are lazy mentally too, and any aggro they'll want to avoid, especially at Xmas. Obviously say it firmly and politely but do not work for nothing, or do extra when they are recalcitrant about paying outstanding docket.

Ok. I start at 7, FTimer starts at 7. We both prep for an hour, he goes off to sort for 30 mins or so. In that time i continue to prep mine and help finish his. We do delivery, my finish time should 12.30, his is 2 pm. We finish at 1pm. I get an extra hour and a half for coming in early/going over (thats if im paid or the manager agrees to it). He gets to finish an hour early and still get paid.

(It varies daily incase you are wondering why the math doesnt add up)

Ive nothing against the Full timer(s) personally

But it doest sit right with me that i start and finish the same time and get paid less for doing the same job.

OK, you've cleared that discrepancy up. It still isn't quite right as a FT would normally start at 06:11 or something like that, with finishes say at 13:31 on a Monday, 14:21 Wed/Thu etc. to make 39.0 hours. I never saw FT's start as late as 7AM in my office, ever! There were 1 or 2 who had a 35-hrs. contract who started at 07:00 instead of 06:11 with the same finishing times. Are you sure (it does sound like it) that this FT is actually not FT but 35hrs?

Anyway, people are right here about you going against the other OPG's a bit - the 'runner saving' (what any colleague saves on his/her finishing time by being quick or having a quick reserve with them or whatever) is not something you should worry about. I worked on a longish round as a reserve sometimes and I asked the guy if it p*ssed him off being out at 2PM when he knew others were at home with their feet up 30 minutes ago. He simply said "If you think about that all the time it'll crack you.." He was right. What you are experiencing here is not so much your colleague 'having it easy' or 'getting away with it' but the batsh*t-crazy RM policy of part-time contracts with daft starting and finishing times, just to keep fixed employee costs down irrespective of the practicality of those PT hours. Overlay these PT people with the old-time FT's and you inevitably get arguments like yours - more so when it's patently obvious most offices are now breaching the 75-25% FT-PT Way Forward Agreement!!

[terry2972]

I cannot get my head around why anybody would work for free I never have and never will

Fulltimer?

no I am on a 27hr contract so need overtime but never work for free

[Zicomurphy]

OK, you've cleared that discrepancy up. It still isn't quite right as a FT would normally start at 06:11 or something like that, with finishes say at 13:31 on a Monday, 14:21 Wed/Thu etc. to make 39.0 hours. I never saw FT's start as late as 7AM in my office, ever! There were 1 or 2 who had a 35-hrs. contract who started at 07:00 instead of 06:11 with the same finishing times. Are you sure (it does sound like it) that this FT is actually not FT but 35hrs?

Every office varies. My office has a 7am start 2 days of the week.

[woopesh]

A good relevant post from Sophie. Reading some of the responses is typical of the problems that exist and are allowed to fester. The issues raised only re-in force the nasty aspects of many RM managers and is rife, nationwide. All the "man up" advice is missing the point. The union should realise that these are the sort of everyday problems experienced in delivery. It is not simply a local problem as some have said. Advice like , "just cut off" may work in stronger offices, the reality is most smaller DOs are managed by tyrants who exploit poor un supported staff who feel unable to challenge the bully managers. They need support and within our union it is sadly, sadly lacking. Leadership from the top is required, they must be aware of the daily onslaught experienced by staff yet sit back and allow it to happen. Witnesses to bullying that do not offer support to colleagues and run them down accusing them of weakness are truly no better than the RM managers who dish out their evil practices. We are Large union, our members deserve better. No one should work under duress, many of our colleagues only give credence to RM management - we're our own worst enemy. It sickens me to witness my own colleagues helping RM to destroy the remaining low morale of down trodden members.

This. I've never worked anywhere before where the Management lie, manipulate (if short of outright bullying) like at Royal Mail. When I was new I had to constantly ask other posties and union reps what the rules were because I couldn't trust them. I soon realised I would NEVER be able to trust them. This results in a confrontational and unpleasant atmosphere that does affect morale negatively. However, I've seen Posties behave in ways (ranting, shouting, strong protest) that would have resulted in immediate dismissal in other companies. I guess that's a normal outcome from the s**t we are placed under. I've never been so angry so frequently at any other workplace before.

[trevjim]

I must be in a good office

every single minute of overtime we worked - we get paid for end off

No arguments no hassle

only problem occurs when you forget to forecast it.

But I have never ever experinced or heard about in our office of working for "free"

yeah this isnt a national issue, its a local one.

id say its a majority issue nationally, there are good managers and offices, but alot of it is rotten to the core

[sophie97]

Ok. I start at 7, FTimer starts at 7. We both prep for an hour, he goes off to sort for 30 mins or so. In that time i continue to prep mine and help finish his. We do delivery, my finish time should 12.30, his is 2 pm. We finish at 1pm. I get an extra hour and a half for coming in early/going over (thats if im paid or the manager agrees to it). He gets to finish an hour early and still get paid.

(It varies daily incase you are wondering why the math doesnt add up)

Ive nothing against the Full timer(s) personally

But it doest sit right with me that i start and finish the same time and get paid less for doing the same job.

I get how this is annoying to you, but its not really the issue. You need to concentrate on the not getting paid OT or being pressured into it more than what your colleagues are "getting away with" - as well as not really being your concern how much someone else is being paid, its just a bad battle to be fighting both your colleagues and the management.

And here lies everything thats wrong with RM.
It's ok for Full-timer to get 39 hrs or if they work day off as many do 46+ hrs. And in reality they'll work 35-40 hrs over the week, some even less than that. But part-timers have to fight for every single minute. But not to worry, if part-timer is not happy he can just cut-off and full-timer will get couple of hours "ghost" docket for doing an extra loop or so that part-timer was unable to do. Whole things a farce.
Sooner we time in and out with PDAs the better.

this 100%, I dont for one second have anything against full timers, but the system RM have in place of mixing FT and PT together does not work, and its PT'ers who get the short straw.