CWU support of Jeremy Corbyn

[fishtank]

It's important to remember that these groups represent two very different ideologies and that cohabitation or cooperation wasn't tangible in the long run. While they both strived for the total deconstruction of the imperialist Roman state and all its power structures, they vastly differed in their opinions on what the Romans really did for them. You could say that the PFJ was much more aware of the positive effects the Romans had on the Judean region. Don't be mistaken though, the truly hated the Romans. I mean, they didn't just hate them like everyone else, they hated them a lot. So despite their recognition of Roman improvements, they were still actively sabotaging the Roman government.

That being said, the PFJ explicitly recognized Roman improvements in various areas. One prime example were the aquaducts and sanitation. Unlike most members of the JPF, the leader of the PFJ clearly remembered what the city used to be like before the Romans came into power, suffice it to say that he never wavered on this particular point. It didn't stop there though, the roads go without saying, but there were many more Roman improvements that were actively recognized as such by the PFJ. They were also very vocal and positive about the Roman wine, medicine, public health and irrigation. Most of all, they recognized the fact that the Roman military was probably one of the only known organizations capable of maintaining public order in a place like that. However, despite all of this, they still hated the Romans a lot and often raised the question as to what the Romans had ever done for them.

In contrast, the JPF never even acknowledged these improvements and they were a lot more linear in their thinking. To them anything Roman was despicable. Both ideologies were very uncompromising and this ultimatly led to the split between both parties. You could say that the PFJ was a lot less radical in their ideology, eventhough their actions say otherwise.

[dvbuk55]

Hey DVB - I've heard you on here yearning for a strongman, a leader that doesn't take any s**t. And I'm here to tell you, you have found it in me mate, Jetblack.

Well jet, I'd describe you as a postman with a strong view of Corbyn as a leftist messiah, which he is not. Your whole demeanour is totally confrontational against those who don't share your belief in the Trotsky philosophy, the orator is new the message is the same. I'm surprised you're not already planning the long brick wall for the detractors.

[fishtank]

Despite Jet's attempts to label me as first a closet Tory then an SNP supporter I've actually been involved with the Labour party in various roles for most of my adult life, I've always voted Labour despite disagreeing with some policies over the years, I was not a fan of Blair and actively campaigned against the Iraq war, On that subject the real truth despite what most revisionists will now tell you was that we were very much in the minority with regards to the Iraq war, most of the general public including Labour members and supporters, the media and politicians on all sides were very pro-war until the bodies started coming back and it became clear there was no post conflict plan, my point here is that the tag of "pro-war" has been attached to a large number of PLP members like some kind of stigma, that really makes me laugh.

In my honest opinion the whole "Corbyn" era is nothing to do with improving the lot of the working classes, nothing to do with stopping the Tories and nothing to do with realigning the Labour party.

I think it's a good old fashioned internal party power struggle, nothing decent or admirable about any of it and the membership are being used by both sides. I've seen it before and no doubt will see it again but it still saddens me, the sad thing is the outcome will be exactly the opposite of what momentum are apparently aspiring to, Corbyn will fail not because he's a "trot", simply because he's been primed to fail, I watched him on the news being asked the obvious question of whether he would in the event of a nuclear attack press the button, he squirmed and wouldn't say yes or no, only that he wouldn't want to, well who in there right mind would but that wasn't the question. He's been primed to fail because he's a man of principles applying for a job that requires the holder to abide by the consensus even if it goes against those principles. He can't engage with the public because his arrogance is palpable, he's right everybody else is wrong.

What I see happening is a flattening of membership numbers, a false peace in the party, infighting among various factions of the left and right wings of the party, perhaps another leadership challenge next year and whenever the next election happens Corbyn will go and the party will lurch again to the right because despite what some people wish for the majority of the country hold centre-right views on the majority of issues.

[jetblack]

Despite Jet's attempts to label me as first a closet Tory then an SNP supporter I've actually been involved with the Labour party

I'm confused, ultimately FT, because I think that you are confused as to where your allegiance lay. Your post above doesn't elucidate the issue none. I'm going to make it simple for you - you either believe in Clause IV or you don't.
I, and 310,000 others that have just voted for Jeremy Corbyn, for the large part, do - and you ?

Its a measure of the grip that the right wing media machine has exerted on the population of the UK when I can be derided as being a "Trot" for saying I believe in socialism.
Its not a source of shame FFS - hold your head up and be proud to be a socialist. Be proud to have compassion, and to believe. Corbyn quoted Bill Shankly in his speech to conference and I think it bares repeating here - ‘the socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life’.”

BTW - could someone, without googling it first, name me one idea propounded by Lev Trotsky ? Don't cheat.
If you can't you really ought to quit using the mans name in vain

I think it's a good old fashioned internal party power struggle, nothing decent or admirable about any of it and the membership are being used by both sides.

No - thats a poor analysis of whats occurring. Corbyn is introducing (participatory) democracy into the party. Vested party estasblishment interests don't like it. How can he be exploiting the members when he's the one to let them have a voice ? Doesn't make sense.

He can't engage with the public because his arrogance is palpable, he's right everybody else is wrong.

Again, confusion here about what it is you are actually wanting in a leader. Sticking to his guns has made, for example, Putin one of the most respected leaders on the world stage, as, arguably, it did with Thatcher.
Can't have it all ways.

What I see happening is a flattening of membership numbers

LOL - at record numbers FT, don't omit that little detail.

..the majority of the country hold centre-right views on the majority of issues.

Sources ?

Its been said over and over that the tories are gaining power on 25% of the electorate. A long way short of 51% - the majority that you claim.

[fishtank]

Participatory democracy is fine but what you have to understand is that Labour party members are not necessarily a true reflection of Labour party supporters or the electorate at large so you end up moulding the party around the thoughts and wishes of party members only and ignoring the mood of the general public. Some in the party think this is fine but can you imagine the Tory party being stupid enough to allow its party members to control policy? ( Their average age is nearly 60, and more than 80% are from white-collar ABC1 social grades. )

So "democracy" ain't what it first appears Jet...

[fishtank]

Sources ?

Its been said over and over that the tories are gaining power on 25% of the electorate. A long way short of 51% - the majority that you claim.

No one can claim ownership of those who don't vote, it's arrogant to think they're just dormant socialists waiting for a real left-wing alternative, if that was the case the polls wouldn't be giving the Tories a 10+ lead. They are disengaged non voters, nothing more can be taken from that. Since Corbyn is struggling to engage with existing Labour supporters outside the membership it's difficult to see how he could engage with non voters.

The rest of your comment is just personal digs at me and not really worth a reply.

[dvbuk55]

. Sticking to his guns has made, for example, Putin one of the most respected leaders on the world stage, as, arguably, it did with Thatcher..

Hardly describes Jezza, he's a peacenik who wouldn't pull the trigger, yet another hangover from the 60s and 70s. There's also his crazy scheme to appoint a Minister for Peace and a Minister for Disarmament, you can't get more left wing than that and sign posting to all and sundry that Britain would be a pushover.

[jetblack]

.. can you imagine the Tory party being stupid enough to allow its party members to control policy?

No I can't - there is no democracy within the Tory party, not even the pretence of it. And nobody gives a s**t.
The thing with the Tories is that everyone knows what it is they are about. There's no deep philosophical analysis going on within their ranks, no struggling with conscience or party democracy, no ballots of the members to worry about, no ideological chasms or wranglings within the Tory party. There's just naked self interest. Its kind of an unspoken tacit agreemant, an eternal truth. Its dead easy and straightforward. Thats what they represent and thats what you vote for when you vote for them.

Its us lot , the rest of us, that are perpetually in a state of flux. And the Tories must love it - in fact they couldn't have had it better if they were orchestrating it themselves.

However, the Labour party membership has spoken now - time for us all to pull together. Have you any idea how long people like me have had to put up with the sell out "socialism" on offer from the Labour Party - because we haven't had an alternative ? Its been a long time I can tell you. But we still voted for them, hoping against hope that when they got power things would be different.

But it wasn't.

So "democracy" ain't what it first appears Jet...

No, its not perfect by any means - but its better than any of the alternatives. Jeremy Corbyn should be applauded for trying to introduce it in the Labour Party. Because the alternative is oligarchy's, dictatorships and corruption - then you really would have something to whine about.

Been there - done that.

[fishtank]

You make the basic, comnon hard left mistake of dismissing the Tories as a bunch of self interested capitalism loving sociopaths,, nice, simple black and white politics which immediately gives you the moral high ground.

In order to defeat your enemy you first have to understand your enemy and you haven't got past page one, you are Rick from The Young Ones and I claim my fiver.

[jetblack]

In order to defeat your enemy you first have to understand your enemy and you haven't got past page one,

Please enlighten me _ I'd be genuinely interested.

And if you can manage to do it without trying to ridicule me all the better

If you are going to go into the intracacies of the Koch brothers brand of libertarianism you'll be wasting your time on me personally. Or even Milton Frieidman and/or Ayn Rand. And that doesn't make me a bigot or a Trot - just means I've heard the arguments over and over and they don't really cut much mustard with me. And, TBH, I don't here have the time or inclination to get into it all again.

But please, feel free to explain to me/us all Conservatism in 2016 if you like. Seems pretty basic to me, but on you go...

Dress it up how you want - its naked self interest and nothing more. The "clever" ones will tell you that pursuing naked self interest is in the long run a social good. I call bullshit

edit. still haven't ascertained wether you believe in Clause IV or not BTW - you seem to be ducking the issue and making me out to be a revolutionary communist because I have stated that I do - even though its been the central pillar of the Labour Party's political philosophy for over 100 years, or thereabouts.

[baldrick]

In order to defeat your enemy you first have to understand your enemy and you haven't got past page one, you are Rick from The Young Ones and I claim my fiver.

You are Sun Tzu from the 5th Century BC and I claim my five Yuan!

[feduppostie]

my take on this is thus

Is Jeremy Corbyn a throwback to the 70's - probably yes

Is this all about Jeremy Corbyn - No

What this is about is probably the last chance this country has to take back any control from the career politicians who are not in it to serve the people - if that sounds like a looney leftie point of view then maybe you need to have a long good look in the mirror

A real shift has happened lately a very important one - the general populous has suddenly woken up to what has happened over the last 30 years or so, which in my opinion is this - the general public has very slowly become apathetic to politics , we have grown so disillusioned with it that we have said, we can't change it, they are all as bad as eachother, I won't bother

That is what they want, they want to continue of the gravy train where they do what they want and we shrug and say 'oh that's just how it is' because socialism has become a dirty word, unions have become a dirty word, anything that stands up for the ordinary worker has been tainted by the past

I've never been interested in politics so I am as much to blame as anyone else, I am however now, in the last GE I didn't vote as I imagine many of you didn't either - I could not see any difference between the parties and didn't see the point - now I can see a clear difference

I don't want a polished politician telling me what I want to hear and then doing whatever they want when in power, I want someone I believe when they speak a person of principal who sticks to their beliefs no matter what

That is what Jeremy Corbyn offers - a real alternative tothe manufactured line of career politicians waiting for their term to be over so they can get the book deal and get on the gravy train of the speaking circuit ( hello David Cameron)

so is Jeremy Corbyn the answer? No but then he was never the question

The question is are you happy giving control of the country to a group of power mad, money seeking, narcissistic people that care nothing for anyone but themselves? You already have by doing nothing - maybe it's time we put our foot down and said no - hopefully we are in time

That is why I am supporting Jeremy Corbyn and Labour, because if we don't now, there may never be another chance


People have forgotten that we are many and they are few - we have the power - and we really need to use it or lose it

[dvbuk55]

That is why I am supporting Jeremy Corbyn and Labour, because if we don't now, there may never be another chance
People have forgotten that we are many and they are few - we have the power - and we really need to use it or lose it

I voted labour last time and every time but not next time. I support labour but not Corbyn. As for the many, there's not enough many to get Corbyn into power and as for losing it, with Corbyn as the leader of the Labour party you've already lost it.

[fishtank]

the general populous has suddenly woken up to what has happened over the last 30 years

No they haven't.
You have changed your political/social circle.
And therein lies your problem.

I could go into great detail about why the "winds of change" are no more than a contrived attempt at inventing an appetite for political change but really all you have to do is look around and smell the coffee. Look where.we are politically compared to 5 years ago, look at who is controlling the debate, look at who makes the decisions and listen to those outside your own bubble.

[baldrick]

I could go into great detail about why the "winds of change" are no more than a contrived attempt at inventing an appetite for political change but really all you have to do is look around and smell the coffee. Look where.we are politically compared to 5 years ago, look at who is controlling the debate, look at who makes the decisions and listen to those outside your own bubble.

Where we are compared to 5 years ago is that people now have a real alternative. 5 years ago there was little difference between the 3 main parliamentary parties. That's why many people didn't bother voting.
But now, not just in the UK, but in Europe, the USA, and across the world, people are increasingly feeling the consequences of neo-liberal economic theories, globalisation and austerity, and supporting alternatives.
That's why we have seen the rise of parties like Syriza in Greece, Podemos in Spain, the SNP in Scotland, and the popularity of Bernie Sanders in the USA - who would have thought that an avowed socialist could do so well in the heart of free market capitalism.
Social Democratic parties which have embraced neo-liberal monetarist policies have lost support across Europe. That is what has happened with Labour here too over the last couple of decades.
It is not Corbyn himself, but what he represents that has enthused people to support him, turning out to hear him, and joining the Labour Party. That feeling can transform electoral politics too.