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Corbyn

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jetblack
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Corbyn

Post by jetblack »

dvbuk55 wrote:
Danelectro wrote:The relevance is that Steve Keen is indirectly involved in the group set up by Ronald Macdonald to shape Labour policy.
The thing is that he's an Australian who takes his theories from foreign economists most of whom died decades and even centuries ago :cuppa
You asked for that Danelectro :Very Happy :Very Happy
You didn't really think you'd get any sort of a constructive discourse on economic theory going with DVB did you ?

edit. A good video here where Keen talks about Peoples QE (another Labour policy) at 28 min.s IIRC - as well as a debt "jubilee".
This is the stuff we should be talking about - and to be fair some of us are trying.

Whilst others are trying to find a thousand different ways of saying "unelectable" :hmmmm
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Danelectro
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Corbyn

Post by Danelectro »

dvbuk55 wrote:
who takes his theories from foreign economists most of whom died decades and even centuries ago :cuppa
He has developed modeling software adapted from Hyman Minsky who died in 1996.

No one on earth has not adapted to or been influenced by what has went before.Do you want somebody to invent a square wheel because the round ones old f***ing hat.Well thats whats happened to the economy,a square wheel trying to cycle its way out of debt and getting nowhere
dvbuk55
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Corbyn

Post by dvbuk55 »

jetblack wrote:You didn't really think you'd get any sort of a constructive discourse on economic theory going with DVB did you ?
Well tbh jet, I responded to your post on my theory on the economy and as I explained I don't need to pontificate on the viability of economic theory because I don't need to persuade the electorate, Jezza does. I did actually point out a number of his theoretical 10 point wish list but you haven't actually defended it and explained the thinking behind it and HOW it is to be carried out, particularly without being elected to No 10 it remains just that, a wish list.
dvbuk55
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Corbyn

Post by dvbuk55 »

Danelectro wrote:
dvbuk55 wrote:
who takes his theories from foreign economists most of whom died decades and even centuries ago :cuppa
He has developed modeling software adapted from Hyman Minsky who died in 1996.
Hmmm, well that was 2 decades ago. Modelling software, yep that's the way to go, unfortunately software doesn't govern a country, make it fiscally sound and actually fit with the realité. You see Dan, the public cannot or will not accept the idea that change on the magnitude proffered is viable or acceptable and they are more comfortable with the status quo.

Could the new world work, well who knows, what I do know is Jezza isn't the man to persuade people to go along with it.
jetblack
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Corbyn

Post by jetblack »

dvbuk55 wrote:
jetblack wrote:Still waiting for your economic policies for the 21st century.
Why would I need economic policies, I don't have to persuade the electorate, that is what Corbyn is supposed to do. Nobody buys his hail fellow well met solution for all ills:

Full employment and an economy that works - well no suggestion how he's going to achieve that
500 Billion Investment Bank - where's the money coming from
A million homes in 5 years - where did he get that figure from and who's going to build them
Security at work and a halt to zero hour contracts - to do anything about that you would need legislation when in power
Secure NHS and Social Care - well you would first of all have to clear the billions already overspent
Free education for all - :shock:

I could go on but there's little point. We both know it's a leftist wish list without any substance whatsoever and nothing to say HOW all this is going to be paid for. Sure it reads well but the reality is that it is never going to happen.
1) Full Employment - by investing £500 billion in infrastructure, manufacturing and new industries backed up by a publicly-owned National Investment Bank and regional banks we will build a high skilled, high tech, low carbon economy that ends austerity and leaves no one and nowhere left behind. We will invest in the high speed broadband, energy, transport and homes that our country needs and allow good businesses to thrive, and support a new generation of co-operative enterprises.
On top of this a program of selective renationalisation (of energy companies primarily but also industries such as ours) would create extra work where the quality of service would be re-established as the driving goal by which we operate, over profits for institutional shareholders.


2) National Investment Bank - this presumably will be instrumental in providing the capital mentioned above to rebuild the economy. It will be able to draw on Government revenues for its requisite capital, but will also use what they are calling "Peoples Quantitative Easing". As you may (or may not ) know, the B of E is currently engaged in QE - unfortunately it seems that the money that they are creating is doing nothing more than driving down interest rates (to the detriment of DB pension schemes like ours, as well as savers), and creating asset bubbles in the stock market, property etc. Peoples QE would put the money directly back into the economy (thus creating real demand) by putting the money into peoples pockets.

3) A million homes in 5 years - see 1) and 2) . "Who is going to build them ?" Are you serious ? Are you suggesting there is a shortage of labour in the UK, on top of everything else ?

4) a halt to zero hours contracts - yep. Hermes may face HMRC investigation into allegations of low pay. These are our competitors. I'd say that this is of absolutely crucial importance to RM employees. We want a level playing field. We want the Hermes guys pulled up to our level - but something tells me that under Tory/Owen Smith rule, we at RM will ultimately be pulled down to their level.


5) Watch or read some Steve Keen ie. the videos posted above, to understand the difference between public and private debt, then get back on here to discuss it.


And you missed an important economic goal cited by the Labour Party:-

Cut income and wealth inequality:

We will build a progressive tax system so that wealth and the highest earners are fairly taxed, act against executive pay excess and shrink the gap between the highest and lowest paid - FTSE 100 CEOs are now paid 183 times the wage of the average UK worker, and Britain’s wages are the most unequal in Europe. We will act to create a more equal society, boost the incomes of the poorest and close the gender pay gap.


I'm struggling to find anything to complain about here TBH.
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dvbuk55
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Corbyn

Post by dvbuk55 »

jetblack wrote:I'm struggling to find anything to complain about here TBH.
Of course you are because you're brainwashed into believing all this is possible, I mean you say from the £500 billion "presumably" well that's a helluva presumption. Full time employment, the closest the economy has ever come to that was in 1955 and that was 60+ years ago, so you think Jezza is going to ratify that from opposition or as PM. Well the only way I can see us approaching that level is to send the 2 million+ foreign workers home. You need money to build homes and yes there is a shortage of skilled labour to build that many homes, like 200,000 a year. Foreign investment would dry up under a labour set on this course and the really wealthy would go off shore to avoid high taxation and re-nationalising would kill off any chance of inward investment. The figures just don't add up even IF the £500 billion materialised.

Like I've said it's a really wonderful wish list but that is all it is a wish list of an aged politician who is living in the past and has persuaded a small deluded following that wishing is a real proposition.
jetblack
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Post by jetblack »

Well we are in agreemant about 1 thing - full employment is a bit fanciful in this day and age. Nonetheless, I think MacDonell has kind of acknowledged as much in his putting forward the idea of a Universal Basic Income. The idea is that for those who haven't been able to find work, instead of penalising and demonising them as workshy scroungers, we give them a decent income out of this countries growing GDP - thereby enabling them to participate in society in a way they currently can not. An end to social exclusion and relative poverty.
Or are we going to keep pretending its their own fault there's 10 applications for every one job ?

Re. the £500 billion. Just to say that the total amount of money created out of thin air from 2009 to 2012 by the B of E was £375 billion. On top of that they recently pumped in another £70 billion around Brexit uncertainty. Giving a grand total of £445 billion (total cost of banks bailout was £850 billion btw)

The difference is that when the tories (and New Labour) do it the money goes to the bankers. But todays Labour Party are proposing that the new money be used on much needed infrastructure, and going back to the people of this country.
Both would have the knock on effect of stimulating the economy and its growth instead of creating asset bubbles.
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dvbuk55
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Post by dvbuk55 »

jetblack wrote:Well we are in agreemant about 1 thing - full employment is a bit fanciful in this day and age.
Re. the £500 billion. Just to say that the total amount of money created out of thin air from 2009 to 2012 by the B of E was £375 billion. On top of that they recently pumped in another £70 billion around Brexit uncertainty. Giving a grand total of £445 billion (total cost of banks bailout was £850 billion btw).
TBH jet, it's all a bit fanciful. Although I will concede full employment isn't statistically full employment but the criteria is that it is 3% of the workforce unemployed. Currently it's over 7%. The £500 billion is fanciful, you cannot take monies already spent and extrapolate into a new scenario particularly over a 7 year period. Everyone must realise that this "new/old" labour movement isn't going to fly regardless of the fanatical following it has. At some point there has to be a reality check.
dvbuk55
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Post by dvbuk55 »

Well good on the Tories for the boundary changes old Jezza could lose his seat when his constituency is redrawn - what a shame, still B&Q are always looking for old people though he may have to be a little more cooperative in his attitude. I'm sure jetblack or baldrick would give him a glowing reference or maybe both, I could perhaps chip in a phrase or two myself :chuckle
dvbuk55
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Corbyn

Post by dvbuk55 »

Just watched Panorama, looking like squeaky bum time for Corbyn and the left wingers.
jetblack
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Post by jetblack »

dvbuk55 wrote:Just watched Panorama, looking like squeaky bum time for Corbyn and the left wingers.
You must be having a laugh there DVB, surely ?

I didn't watch Panorama, but it seems to me that it's the PLP careerist traitors that, in view of the impending Corbyn landslide courtesy of the membership, should be kacking their pants.


And to make things worse for them, JC is aiming to bring in further democratic measures, whereby the shadow front bench/cabinet are at least in part chosen by the membership of the party.

Of course, Tom Watson doesn't like it :hmmmm

Hey Tom - let's hope no-one challenges you for Deputy Leader mate. Cos this time you will not be getting my vote. Mug me off once, shame on you - mug me off twice, shame on me.
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dvbuk55
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Post by dvbuk55 »

I have no doubt that Corbyn will win and try to impose his left wing philosophy throughout the CLP but he's never going to win over the PLP or the general run of the mill socialist. I think the corbynistas have a misguided view as to how the infiltration of the left and sometimes banned members joining just to influence the labour party will be disappointed. I saw Maureen Lipman on this morning the other day, she doodles famous people as animals and had drawn one of Corbyn as a parrot, explaining the likeness of Corbyn has been saying the same thing for 30 years :chuckle and yes I found that so true and amusing.
jetblack
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Corbyn

Post by jetblack »

dvbuk55 wrote:..Corbyn will win and try to impose his left wing philosophy throughout ...
No - in fact its quite the opposite. He's trying to let the likes of you and I have their voice and be represented. If enough people like yourself join the Labour Party then your views will win the day, and not mine. He's not really trying to impose anything - other than democracy. If you are against that, then what are you ? What did we fight wars for ?
dvbuk55 wrote: I saw Maureen Lipman on this morning the other day, she doodles famous people as animals and had drawn one of Corbyn as a parrot..
Did she ? I'm sure that was very funny, yes. Why is it that the Jewish community is so against Jeremt Corbyn ? Jewish donations are down big time to the Labour Party - most notably Michael Foster [but he is not on his own]

The Labour Party is not a minority wealthy vested interest party. Its a mighty shame that it has been commandeered by minority wealthy vested interests in recent years - as has the Democrat Party in the US (Hilary and Goldman Sachs (Goldman Sachs - the clue is in the title)) - but, thank God, it is now back on its true course as being the party that represents the ordinary people of the UK.
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dvbuk55
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Post by dvbuk55 »

jetblack wrote: thank God, it is now back on its true course as being the party that represents the ordinary people of the UK.
It isn't on it's true course jet and I consider myself as an ordinary person together with millions of ordinary labour supporters and he truly doesn't represent my views in any shape or form. Ultimately he will lose jet.
jetblack
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Corbyn

Post by jetblack »

dvbuk55 wrote:
jetblack wrote: thank God, it is now back on its true course as being the party that represents the ordinary people of the UK.
It isn't on it's true course jet and I consider myself as an ordinary person together with millions of ordinary labour supporters and he truly doesn't represent my views in any shape or form. Ultimately he will lose jet.
Tim Farron is saying he admires Tony Blair. I think you've found your new home DVB.

Either that, or, come Saturday, put up or shut up.
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