Corbyn

[dvbuk55]

I'm alright Jack - good for you, you are one of the fortunate ones.

I am fortunate, but I've worked long hours and worked hard to get there, do I feel empathy with those who have less, well I've been there and done that. Does the economic and social structure need some adjustment, yes it does but making promises that cannot be kept is not the way to go about it.

[fishtank]

None of this really answers the important questions though, how does Corbyn lead a party that doesn't want him to lead it?
Where does the Labour party go next? Will it split? If it does where will the bulk of Labour supporters, not members actually go and does it mean we're heading for a one party state with the left pretty much giving up on any chance of making a difference because it cannot unite under the umbrella of a single party?

This is far more important than the ideology of one man. No matter what side of the debate you stand on nobody in their right mind can think this wil end well for socialists of any persuasion.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I suppose it's the Nuclear option (pun intended) for the left. Get Corbyn elected leader to make a change in the style of politics and drag Labour to the left away from career politicians and focus groups and then when a viable and charismatic leader that can unite both wings of the party shows themselves let him depart with honour.

Problem is Eagle wasn't it, Smith has far too much baggage from New Labour and members (nor voters according to polls) don't take him seriously and so far there is no one else.

Alan johnson could be a better option than Smith, but the CWU distrust him after his position on privatisation, but he doesn't have the New Labour label of others, he is seen as more middle ground. Could he be the Labour PM, stranger things have happened.

[dvbuk55]

Get Corbyn elected leader to make a change in the style of politics and drag Labour to the left

There's the rub of course TBT, left wing politics will never be accepted by mainstream Labour supporters and consequently will never be elected to power, ergo the policies spouted by Corbyn and the Corbynistas are merely rhetoric and shouldn't be taken seriously.

[jetblack]

None of this really answers the important questions though, how does Corbyn lead a party that doesn't want him to lead it?
Where does the Labour party go next? Will it split? If it does where will the bulk of Labour supporters, not members actually go and does it mean we're heading for a one party state with the left pretty much giving up on any chance of making a difference because it cannot unite under the umbrella of a single party?

This is far more important than the ideology of one man. No matter what side of the debate you stand on nobody in their right mind can think this wil end well for socialists of any persuasion.

In todays YouGov poll Con at 38% Labour at 31%.

In last years general election Con achieved 37% Labour 30% - this before our Marxist revolutionary Pol Pottist Corbynista took over the reins. New Labour had already stopped working.
In other words - the old loony lefty has actually gained ground. Not much ground as of yet, I'll grant you - but given the absolute media onslaught, the cold hard ridicule and the paranoid frenzy whipped up by establishemt figures on all sides I'd say, personally, that this is absolutely remarkable.
Imagine what the polls could be saying right now if the party, in the wake of the Brexit, had united - instead of degenerating into the den of carreerist vipers that it so publicly has. I suppose this was JC's fault as well hey

Will the party split ? I dunno. Wouldn't be the first time. But if it does I'll probably give the same response that I did when David Owen et al formed the SDP. Good riddance to bad rubbish. They were no more socialist than the new Duke of Westminster - what, cos they want to put 0.5% on income tax for the top earners ? That makes them worthy of being called a socialist ?
No - their place is, and was, in the Tory Party (or the Libs - Tories with no balls) - and if anyone has "infiltrated" the peoples party, it is establishment and privileged shills such as these.

When Corbyn is re-elected as leader some people within the PLP need to take a long hard look at their positions. And either swallow your pride, show some humility and abide by Jeremy's democratic mandate - or go. And go quick.

[dvbuk55]

When Corbyn is re-elected as leader some people within the PLP need to take a long hard look at their positions. And either swallow your pride, show some humility and abide by Jeremy's democratic mandate - or go. And go quick.

Dream on! Do you seriously think that 172 PLP members are going to re-evaluate their opinion of Corbyn and his policies and David Owen had nothing like 172 MPs following him.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Get Corbyn elected leader to make a change in the style of politics and drag Labour to the left

There's the rub, of course, TBT, left wing politics will never be accepted by mainstream Labour supporters .

Why not I voted Conservative in the past, I now class myself as a Left of Centre Labour supporter. Not SWP or the revolutionaries (Marxists) but as a Socialist Democrat wanting to make change through representation.

The problem is if the centrists keeping ridiculing left wing members instead of accepting that there are issues and the Party needs to change to have a chance of getting into power, then there is nowhere else to go except to be more like the Conservatives and try to take ground from them. The problem there, is why vote for a party trying to be more like the Conservatives when the Conservatives are already doing it.

The electorate needs a clear choice. At the last election, there wasn't one, that's why the Conservatives got a majority, at least IMHO.

Would Corbyn make a good PM, probably not, but he does have the conviction of his own politics, he isn't controlled by the Media or focus groups. He isn't a careerist politician although he has made a career out of it. He doesn't live off the expense accounts, he is one of the lowest claimants. He shows respect towards others opinions and doesn't join in the name calling and putdowns so prevalent in politics today. Basically, people may not agree with his politics, but they do see a decent man, and for once many people want to give a decent man a chance for once.

So until the establishment start to take him seriously, or at least what he represents to others (not his politics so much) then they'll never understand his appeal and never get the groundswell of support he has gained to come back behind the traditional labour movement. And in consequence, probably have little chance of gaining the power they so need to make the changes they want. Although why they didn't make those changes for the 13 years they were in power I don't know.

[dvbuk55]

Get Corbyn elected leader to make a change in the style of politics and drag Labour to the left

There's the rub, of course, TBT, left wing politics will never be accepted by mainstream Labour supporters .

So until the establishment start to take him seriously, or at least what he represents to others (not his politics so much) then they'll never understand his appeal and never get the groundswell of support he has gained to come back behind the traditional labour movement. And in consequence, probably have little chance of gaining the power they so need to make the changes they want. Although why they didn't make those changes for the 13 years they were in power I don't know.

Nobody can take him seriously other than the converted. The changes Corbyn is advocating are too extreme for the middle of the road labour supporters and they were the ones in power for 13 years and would not advance the theoretical socialism beloved of the Corbynistas. Labour is reputed to have 9 million supporters and Corbyn has 250,000 who voted him in as leader, he isn't going to last because those 9 million will not support the leftist views. Apart from anything else he simply does not have the necessary experience to be the leader of the labour movement let alone elected as prime minister because he hasn't ever been in front line politics.

[jetblack]

... he hasn't ever been in front line politics.

He's experienced more "front line" politics in the last 2 months than most of the gravy trainers would ever imagine possible. And he's still standing.

You know what they say - cometh the hour, cometh the man.

BTW - could you just elucidate us all about the "hard left" policies which the people of this country will not go for, but which JC espouses ?
Renationalising RM ?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Get Corbyn elected leader to make a change in the style of politics and drag Labour to the left

There's the rub, of course, TBT, left wing politics will never be accepted by mainstream Labour supporters .

So until the establishment start to take him seriously, or at least what he represents to others (not his politics so much) then they'll never understand his appeal and never get the groundswell of support he has gained to come back behind the traditional labour movement. And in consequence, probably have little chance of gaining the power they so need to make the changes they want. Although why they didn't make those changes for the 13 years they were in power I don't know.

Nobody can take him seriously other than the converted. The changes Corbyn is advocating are too extreme for the middle of the road labour supporters and they were the ones in power for 13 years and would not advance the theoretical socialism beloved of the Corbynistas. Labour is reputed to have 9 million supporters and Corbyn has 250,000 who voted him in as leader, he isn't going to last because those 9 million will not support the leftist views. Apart from anything else he simply does not have the necessary experience to be the leader of the labour movement let alone elected as prime minister because he hasn't ever been in front line politics.

If your opinion is typical of the Centre Left whereby they ignore his appeal and dismiss it because of his "hard Left" policies, then I am afraid whatever Labour do they are doomed to linger in opposition without any real power for a generation. Corbynistas aside people generally aren't supporting him because of his policies, but because of his "new" style of politics, respect, inclusion and forgive me for saying it, the common man approach.

The horrifying outcome means that whoever wins Corbyn or Smith, the other side will be blamed for consigning Labour to defeat. Wouldn't it be better to work together for the benefit of all, rather than carrying on the infighting and back stabbing we have now.

[dvbuk55]

... he hasn't ever been in front line politics.

He's experienced more "front line" politics in the last 2 months than most of the gravy trainers would ever imagine possible. And he's still standing.

You know what they say - cometh the hour, cometh the man.

BTW - could you just elucidate us all about the "hard left" policies which the people of this country will not go for, but which JC espouses ?
Renationalising RM ?

Ah yes "frontline politics" is leading the PLP by example, which he obviously failed to do, being invited to speak in Europe, America or to any "enlightened" left wing organisations, I mean like Russia but no. All we ever see is Corbyn dressed in the same clothes stood on a soap box smugly preaching to like minded people. Tell me how many people do you think he's converted to his way of thinking. Yes they do say cometh etc but in his case it will be cometh the minute goeth the man.

There's going to be no re-nationalising anything, no more schools, hospitals, jobs or £10 minimum wage - they are more a wish list than an actual policy, saying it doesn't make it happen. Rather than a leader of the labour movement he's more like a leader of a cult.

[dvbuk55]

The horrifying outcome means that whoever wins Corbyn or Smith, the other side will be blamed for consigning Labour to defeat. Wouldn't it be better to work together for the benefit of all, rather than carrying on the infighting and back stabbing we have now.

TBT Corbyn had the opportunity to unite the party by resigning and stubbornly refused believing his idea of politics was universal. 65 members of the cabinet resigned and 172 PLP members voted against him in a no confidence vote. What did Corbyn do, stick like a turd to a woollen blanket. That man is solely responsible for the demise of the PLP, the aftermath of which will take a generation or more to recover from. I hope history reviles him for the egotistical no hoper that he is.

[Tman]

Corbynistas aside people generally aren't supporting him because of his policies, but because of his "new" style of politics, respect, inclusion and forgive me for saying it, the common man approach..

Yeah, if that "new style" means dressing like a distressed widower complete with shabby little beard, the inability to wear a suit and tie (or indeed, ever look smart), talking slowly and softly as if it lends gravitas, and spouting things which maybe meant something thirty-odd years ago but are now laughable anachronisms, then yeah that would be it.
All meaningless tosh until you come onto the declaration of talks with Argentina re the Falklands, and the intent of creating a united Ireland, two issues which alone have cost far too many lives and yet this idiotic charlatan unilaterally espouses them with no public mandate or desire to achieve those objectives.
Talk about giving hope to your "enemies", and that's leaving aside the treachery towards the NI Unionists and the Falkland islanders plus the waste of lives by our service people.
And all some go on about here is "renationalising RM" as if that was an over-riding goal of any future government.
"Common man approach".....seems like that common man sees right through this tw*t.

[jetblack]

All we ever see is Corbyn dressed in the same clothes stood on a soap box smugly preaching to like minded people. ..Yes they do say cometh etc but in his case it will be cometh the minute goeth the man.

Ad hominem attack - not much meat on the bones DVB

There's going to be no re-nationalising anything, no more schools, hospitals, jobs or £10 minimum wage - they are more a wish list than an actual policy, saying it doesn't make it happen. Rather than a leader of the labour movement he's more like a leader of a cult.

Yes - we know. You can't vote for him cos no-one else will etc etc blah blah. Its getting a bit boring this.

But please don't make out that you would love to believe in the policies yourself - if only others would believe in it as well. You are trying to pull the wool over our eyes mate. Truth is you, DVB, don't believe in the policies, regardless of wether others would vote for them or not - you don't believe in the investment in infrastructure/public services/renationalisation of anything - and thats the reason you won't vote for him. I've said it before and I'll say it again - your party is the Conservative Party. Join up here

Corbyns policies mean the baby boomers might end up paying more tax - and you don't see why you should - you've worked hard and you are doing quite well thankyou very much.

Same old same old.

[dvbuk55]

I don't think I've ever said I believe in his policies because like Father Christmas I don't believe in that either. If Corbyn was crapping golden eggs I wouldn't vote for him. You seem to think we "baby boomers" had it easy but the truth is we have worked hard for what we have when wages weren't that great and many of those people didn't have the option of providing a pension for their future unlike you and your generation, those so called BB aren't finding it so easy. Does Corbyn mention pensions in his deluded diatribes, not that I've noticed.

You know jet, everybody who doesn't agree with the left and their policies isn't an enemy of the state, but it's looking a little like the beginning of the national socialist movement in Germany in the 30s with an intransigent leading a bunch of deluded followers.