Corbyn

[baldrick]

Immigration is a concern when wages, public services and resources are being cut under the guise of austerity. Austerity isn't a necessity, it's a political choice. If homes, hospitals and schools were being built, not only would that fulfill need but also provide training and decent jobs.
Economic stability? It was the bankers who destabilised the economy and we had to spend billions to bail them out.

[dvbuk55]

Immigration is a concern when wages, public services and resources are being cut under the guise of austerity. Austerity isn't a necessity, it's a political choice. If homes, hospitals and schools were being built, not only would that fulfill need but also provide training and decent jobs.
Economic stability? It was the bankers who destabilised the economy and we had to spend billions to bail them out.

Where exactly would the money come from for the schools, houses and hospitals, -borrowing? How much would be borrowed, how many schools, houses and hospitals built and how would they be staffed? It's so easy to bandy rhetoric about what you would do when in power knowing you will never be called upon to provide the money because you'll never be in power. Immigration is a concern regardless of austerity baldrick because we cannot afford to be the worlds bread basket. I mean seriously can you see Corbyn being taken seriously on the world stage? If any world leaders knew who he was, which they don't, they'd probably think he was Michael Foots son.

Let me ask you a simple question, could you afford to borrow money to buy things you'd like but don't necessarily need over and above what you earn week in week out?

[jetblack]

You aren't one of those pictured are you FT ? You certainly sound like you could be. Cos that argument is established vested interest through and through.

Jeremy Corbyn is moderate IMHO. Who are you comparing him to FT ? Which of his policies is extreme would you say ? Renationalising Royal Mail ? A national bank that serves its customers rather than skimming off the top and scamming like the commercial banks ? A living wage for all ? Is that whats called extreme these days ?
Personally I'd say that selling off the family silver and having the servants not only indebted to the gills but also working for (unstable and insecure) peanuts is really extreme.And having the peasants send their sons to fight an illegal war in a country they've never heard of in order to secure for themsleves a cheap and steady supply of oil. Whilst their own sons get to study PPE at Oxford and so tell us the same old same old for the next 40 years .
But apparently that isn't extreme

That, ladies and gentlemen, is called "the way of things".


ps. well, for the first time in my lifetime, we now have an alternative to "the way of things".

[Tman]

Well not really, as (as been said ad infinitum) Corbyn won't ever get the chance to be any sort of alternative.
Poor old Jet's going to be in the depths of despair when he realises (or at least, when the rest of the Corbynistas realise) they've been had and the Bearded One couldn't lead a blind poodle.

[dvbuk55]

That, ladies and gentlemen, is called "the way of things". For the first time in my lifetime, we now have an alternative to "the way of things".

That jet, is called reality and there is no alternative to that. Believe me Corbyn's idea of Shangri-La isn't an alternative other than a wish list for left wing corbynistas. He isn't a prophet for the future, more a Jeremiah for the Labour movement. Will you still support him when he loses the election and him and his deputy have to resign, or as Corbyn keeps squealing support the leader of the party WHOEVER it is, regardless of the policies.

[baldrick]

Where exactly would the money come from for the schools, houses and hospitals, -borrowing?

Let me ask you a simple question, could you afford to borrow money to buy things you'd like but don't necessarily need over and above what you earn week in week out?

Where did the money come from which was used to bail out the banks? Where did the money come from for the war on Iraq? Where does the money come from that pays for Trident? The answer is from taxation and borrowing. Taxes on the rich and big business have been cut by their Tory friends. They could be raised again. Governments have always borrowed money. Interest rates are at an all time low, and will remain low for the foreseeable future. Spending on infrastructure and services improves the abilities of the workforce, cuts the need to provide benefits, and will increase tax revenue from those who then go into employment.

And yes I have borrowed money to buy things I didn't necessarily 'need'. I borrowed money on HP to buy my first colour tv. I could have kept my old b&w tv. I borrowed money to buy somewhere to live. I suppose I didn't need to buy, I could have rented, which I did before. And I have paid off that loan.
But homes, hospitals and schools are things we need, not luxuries, and we should as one of the richest countries be able to provide, as we did before the monetarist market forces Reagan/Thatcher economic policies, which have cut the living standards of the majority while increasing the vast wealth of the rich.

[dvbuk55]

I can't honestly say my living standards have fallen. I own a car, a house and buy anything within reason that I could possibly want BUT I don't borrow money for them. So lets weigh up whether I would want extra schools, hospitals etc or Trident and a well armed capable army, navy and air force hmmmm, yep I pick Trident etc. What Corbyn is preaching is a welfare utopia which we as a nation cannot afford and above all you have to live within your means. When you ask where the money comes from for the banks, well that's where the borrowing came in that produced the massive deficit and to reintroduce that level of borrowing would saddle your children and their children with a never ending spiral of debt. In truth though I don't know why we discuss those scenarios because old Jezza will never be in a position to borrow unless he has an infinite credit card.

[jetblack]

Headline - Tom Watson sends Corbyn 'proof of Trotskyist Labour infiltration'

I feel like such a prat for having voted for this man to become deputy leader. Trotskyists FFS. Doesn't he know that no-one reads Marx anymore, let alone Trotsky Did Trotsky actually write anything ? What exactly is a Trotskyite ? I'd like to know - just in case I am one. Its better to know these things. Are the Chinese Trots ? Cos if they are someone should tell Apple Inc.

No Tom - sounds like you are trying to fear monger using words and language that draw on historical and negative connotations. Corbynista - is this a reference to the Sandinistas ? Its not a negative thing at all if it is - but it is of course being used that way because the term has come to denote "the unknown and dangerous other", that should be feared.
Militant extremist. Commie. Loony Left. Infiltrating - like a disease infiltrates a healthy body.

Its cheap. Its desperate. Its selling the UK public short. Again.

Reminds me of the McCarthy witch hunts in the US in the 50's.
What next ? Len MacCluskey up before a Parliamentary committee being asked to "name names" ?

[dvbuk55]

Corbynista - is this a reference to the Sandinistas ? Its not a negative thing at all if it is - but it is of course being used that way because the term has come to denote "the unknown and dangerous other", that should be feared.
Militant extremist. Commie. Loony Left. Its cheap. Its desperate. Its selling the UK public short.

Well no. It's descriptive of those blindly following a man who has no vision whatsoever. He relies on a tired and weary manifesto created almost a hundred years ago, which is very indicative that he is firmly rooted in the last century. It's not selling the UK public short, that is a perception only of those who support this crazed loon.

[fishtank]

Headline - Tom Watson sends Corbyn 'proof of Trotskyist Labour infiltration'

I feel like such a prat for having voted for this man to become deputy leader. Trotskyists FFS. Doesn't he know that no-one reads Marx anymore,

Leadership contender Jeremy Corbyn was asked repeatedly whether he was a Marxist in an interview for the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show.
He was quizzed amid claims that a tiny ultra-left sect was using his campaign as a vehicle to infiltrate Labour as part of a “revolutionary strategy.”
Mr Corbyn distanced himself from such groups but refused the invitation to criticise the communist philosopher.
“Marx analysed what was happening in a quite brilliant way and the philosophy around Marx is absolutely fascinating,” he said.
Asked whether he regarded himself as a Marxist, Mr Corbyn confessed he had “not read as much of Marx as I should have done.”

[jetblack]

Quick ABC of Marx. Just for JC

An individuals class is defined by their relationship to the means of production ie. by wether they actually own anything. The working class own nothing and therefore rely on the sale of their labour for their subsistence. The owners (of the means of production) control not only the economic infrastructure but also the cultural superstructure (which helps maintain the hegemony (consensus of values)). Capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction - as, over time, its inherent contradictions are no longer sustainable. The ultimate outcome is inevitable - the workers of the world unite, and the people become the common owners of the wealth/means of production.
Before any of you wet your pants at the dangerous lefty extremist that was Karl Marx, let it be known that up until Tony Blair, the Labour Party constitution contained a clause committing it to the common ownership of the means of production Oh, and the largest and most succesful economy of modern history have a similar outlook on all things economic and philosophic - China.

Is Jeremy Corbyn a Marxist ? I have no idea. He wants to renationalise Royal Mail, so who knows. Someone call the cops.

But whatever your political persuasion you can't deny Marx's relevance, even today. Cos today is the day that the Duke of Westminster (who left Harrow with only 2 O' levels - but nonetheless went to Sandhurst and reached the rank of General ) passed on his £9 billion fortune to his 23 year old son.

And the whole thing goes round and round and round...........

[dvbuk55]

Quick ABC of Marx. Just for JC .

Well a quick ABC for jetblack, Capitalism is alive, well and thriving and communism is a dead duck. So much for Marx although I think your short lesson for JC is wasted because he won't understand. As for educational qualifications Corbyn got two A Levels at E level (yes E) and ducked college without finishing his degree, he didn't actually attend a university. There are probably hundreds of postmen who are better educated and thousands who are more intelligent. Not that I'm suggesting for one moment those who subscribe to corbynism are dim , well it's been suggested that they have difficulty in understanding reality, but then lots of people do.

[jetblack]

Capitalism is alive, well and thriving

Its working for the baby boomers - isn't it DVB ?

Not so good for the young uns paying between 10 and 20% of their wages in rent though hey ? (to the new Duke of Westmister )

edit. Jeremy Corbyn is proving his mettle as a man as we speak - and it goes way above and beyond his educational qualifications. I only mentioned the Dukes 2 O' levels as he has been (unelected) one of the most powerful men in this country for quite a long time - and yet was obviously as thick as pig s**t.

[dvbuk55]

Capitalism is alive, well and thriving

Its working for the baby boomers - isn't it DVB ?

Not so good for the young uns paying between 10 and 20% of their wages in rent though hey ? (to the new Duke of Westmister )

edit. Jeremy Corbyn is proving his mettle as a man as we speak - and it goes way above and beyond his educational qualifications. I only mentioned the Dukes 2 O' levels as he has been (unelected) one of the most powerful men in this country for quite a long time - and yet was obviously as thick as pig s**t.

Well he was reputedly good to his workers and was more than generous in supporting community projects and served his country as a reservist and reached the rank of Major General as opposed to Corbyn who has reached the dizzy heights of Major Pillock.

Capitalism isn't restricted to the UK jet, so the baby boomers analogy is hardly relevant to those nations who are capitalist but don't have baby boomers. You see one of the problems of the Corbynistas is they have a very narrow view and don't see the broader world wide picture, a bit like a horse charging ever onward with blinkers on.

[baldrick]

I can't honestly say my living standards have fallen. I own a car, a house and buy anything within reason that I could possibly want.

So lets weigh up whether I would want extra schools, hospitals etc or Trident and a well armed capable army, navy and air force hmmmm, yep I pick Trident etc.

What Corbyn is preaching is a welfare utopia which we as a nation cannot afford and above all you have to live within your means.

I'm alright Jack - good for you, you are one of the fortunate ones. You have said you are or were a socialist, don't you have any empathy for the less fortunate, the communities decimated by industry closures, the young who, if they are lucky, can only get part time, or short term jobs on zero hours contracts. Those who can't afford to rent let alone buy a home. People on benefits who are being sanctioned for the most spurious of reasons. The growing numbers dependent on food banks. All this in the fifth richest country in the world.

You are obfuscating again. As far as I understand it Corbyn is for scrapping Trident, not the armed forces. Anyway we should be able to build more schools and hospitals with the £350m per week we will save by leaving the EU. Or was that a lie?

And Corbyn is not preaching a 'welfare utopia'. He wants to get 1m people back into work by spending on infrastructure. As I understand it Owen Smith is saying much the same.