CWU support of Jeremy Corbyn

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Another nail in Corbyn's coffin last night....to put your own beliefs above official Labour party policy on Trident renewal...

That man is an offence to common sense. He has set his stall out on clause iv which was cancelled by the realists within the party who realised that it was an almost Victorian utopian dream and had no place in the modern world. I could see Corbyn wandering the streets of London in the 1890s wearing a deerstalker and muttering to himself.

Umm No. Factually incorrect on 2 points.

Clause IV still exists - its on every labour membership card. It was amended by Tony Blair in 1995. The current Clause reads:

The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.

Also the claim that he wants to revert the Clause back to the original wording is wrong. Horror of horrors he suggested, as did Blair, that it needs to be looked at again and made more relevant to today. The only public statement was that he was "open" to restoring the clause. Open doesn't mean backing wholeheartedly - it means he thinks its worth discussing. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -clause-iv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jetblack]

It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.

Soundslike Camerons "big society" to me

Soon as the link between the distribution of wealth/power/opportunity and the ownership of the means of production is severed (which this revised clause iv did) - then its all just hot air.
The original clause iv contains the seeds/remedies by which the aspirations are to be met - the revision contains no such solutions.

Anyhow - back to JC. Latest poll suggests he's going to trounce whoever they put up against him :-


" Corbyn has a lead of more than 20 points over both his main rivals, the YouGov poll suggests. In a two-way contest he would beat Angela Eagle by 24 points and Owen Smith by 22 points, the poll suggests. And if all three were on the ballot Corbyn (on 54%) would be 18 points ahead of the combined total of Eagle (21%) and Smith (15%) on first preference votes, the poll suggests.

There is no clear evidence to show whether Eagle or Smith would have the better chance challenging Corbyn. Eagle is ahead of Smith on first preference votes if both names are included (perhaps reflecting the fact she is better known). But the poll also suggests that Corbyn’s lead over Smith in a two-way contest would be marginally smaller than his lead over Eagle. In truth, the figures suggest that, if the election were held now, Corbyn would easily trounce either of them.

Corbyn’s net approval rating with Labour members has gone up over the last three weeks, from +3 to +14, despite Labour MPs passing a motion of no confidence in him. This may be the most remarkable finding in the survey, and perhaps the “despite” in my previous sentence was inappropriate. It may well be the case that Corbyn’s approval ratings have gone up precisely because he is perceived at war with his MPs. If so, this suggests that Labour’s attempt to find a leader acceptable to both members and its MPs could be doomed to failure. YouGov is comparing Corbyn’s current ratings to his ratings in a poll conducted between 27 and 30 June. The no confidence motion was passed on 28 June."


Don't want to be complacent, but this poll is encouraging.

A man is never on his own for long when he is right.

[dvbuk55]

Labour policy is to support Trident, Corbyns policy is not to support it and would not pull the trigger if he was ever elected and that's another reason why he'll never be elected. Any ex-serviceman knows when called on to pull the trigger you must and would without fear or favour.

[fishtank]

How is the poll encouraging?
What it means is that Labour will be mired in this leaderless infighting for the next 4 years until Corbyn goes to the country and the plain fact that he and a large proportion of Labour members are out of touch with the rest of the country is shown up as fact.
Then what?

You still haven't answered the question, how does a leader lead when those who he's tasked with leading don't want to be led by him?

[dvbuk55]

A man is never on his own for long when he is right.

Which man would that be, the one who would allow the country to be obliterated whilst he stood by with his finger off the trigger. Trident has been voted in for the next 50 years mind not that Corbyn would ever be in the position to not pull the trigger should he ever live that long.

Tell me jet what do you think will happen to the PLP should Corbyn win, seriously what possible outcome can there be other than a splintered party which in that case would take a generation or more to ever be electable again. You aren't a closet Tory by any chance bulling up Corbyn to get him re-elected are you?

[fishtank]

What's clear from your comments jetblack is that you, like Corbyn and a lot of his followers are only interested in the "project", you're not interested in stopping the Tories, helping the poor or saving the nhs, you're not interested in protecting the weakest or fighting the march to the intolerant right in this country because stopping those things require the courage to seize control and test your policies for real.

You want to play safe and take the moral high ground without the risk of being wrong. Go ahead,play schoolyard politics, make the Labour party as insignificant nationally as the SWP and the rest of us will continue to get our hands dirty in the real world.

[jetblack]

If JC is re-elected as leader of the Labour Party (still a big "if" at this point - what with the NEC privatising the vote) then traitors and insurgents within the PLP would have 2 options in my view 1) do the honourable thing and resign or 2) toe the party line, start showing a bit of humility and show the democratically elected leader of the party the allegiance and loyalty he deserves and which they have failed to show thus far.

Of those two options , number 1 is by far the more preferable. This would prove to be a renaissance for the Labour Party - its inevitable anyhow, so there's no point postponing it any longer (to the detriment of us all). Number 2 is unsatisfactory for various reasons - but I can't see that happening.
What I can see happening is, in effect, a breakaway group in the PLP, effectively splitting the PLP (if not the party in the country and amongst the members). If this is the outcome - and it would be absolutely unforgivable if it were - then the solution would be to have rules (put) in place to deselect the MP's concerned from office, thereby creating byelections where candidates more representative of the party as a whole were nominated to stand.

Like I say, I would hope that a good proportion would do the honourable thing - but they won't.

DVB - you might well press the button - but its nothing to brag about mate. Me ? I'd get rid of Trident tommorrow.

Some interesting articles circulating just now around the "traditional" mass media narrative - ie. the one that is persecuting JC - and the rise of various social media. I think there is a lot in this - one such article here :- Jeremy Corbyn And The People Versus The Media

Recent study by the LSE found :-

Some of you lot are swallowing it hook, line and sinker. Think for yourselves - and question the motives of those feeding you pap (soft food for infants or invalids, as bread soaked in water or milk )


In the words of Lou Reed, "Don't believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear".

[fishtank]

Deselection or expecting resignations is not democratic, I'm surprised someone who considers the leadership selection process democratic would not see the irony in this position, these MPs were voted into position by their constituents, not party members or Corbyn.

You're asking for candidates that more reflect the party as a whole, what is that?

[jetblack]

I think the accepted parlance would be that "Their positions have become untenable". Its more to do with doing the right thing, the honourable thing, than democracy as such.
They have attempted a coup after all - where's the democracy in that ? I personally have been shocked at the lengths that the plotters have gone to.

You live by the sword, you die by the sword

BTW. why haven't they resigned already on account of the damning findings of the Chilcott Report ? You know - voting to wreak carnage on an innocent nation on nothing more than, well, pap.
8 years in the making, and it lasts for 2 days/its allowed 2 days in the public awareness. The leadership contest/coup has been a welcome distraction, wouldn't you say ?

[jetblack]

Angela Eagle pulled out of leadership race.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the real contenders are sitting this one out. Maybe that means its a forgone conclusion Corbyn is re-elected. Maybe the big fish are waiting for him to get hammered at a general election before they launch their bids.
Gambling, of course, that he does gets hammered at a general election.
The pundits have been wrong so far.

The times they are a changing

[dvbuk55]

8 years in the making, and it lasts for 2 days/its allowed 2 days in the public awareness. The leadership contest/coup has been a welcome distraction, wouldn't you say ?

Chilcott was a nothing, despite HG Wells, you cannot turn the clock back, we went to war people died, that's a consequence of combat. You may have noticed nobody was to blame directly and no action will be taken. As for MPs resigning get real jet, they were elected by their constituents not Jezza and his Corbynistas. The inevitability is a divided party where Jezza is the lowest common denominator with his 40 supporters as opposed to any leader of the 172 loyal to the labour party and they will in effect become the rightful opposition. I do believe that essentially even the CLP and unions will see sense and give him the old heave ho.

In any case his days are numbered, at the next election the losses will be so great that he will not be supported again and may even be deselected himself.

[dvbuk55]

Angela Eagle pulled out of leadership race.

The times they are a changing

I believe that was inevitable, she doesn't have the makings of a leader and I'm not too sure about Smith but hey it is what it is they only wanted one candidate so as not to split the vote and there it is.

As for the times changing, if Corbyn wins, the times won't be changing for the better I'm sorry to say.

[jetblack]

Chilcott was a nothing...we went to war people died, that's a consequence of combat. You may have noticed nobody was to blame directly and no action will be taken.

I wish the world were as black and white for me as it is for you. Me personally, the older I get the less I know. Things become more "grey".

But of this I am sure - we'll know we have a civilised society when we have finally stop telling our innocent young sons, who we pay to go kill and be killed, that they are heroic.
A lot of lies, a lot of waste, suffering and futility - but not much heroism. The heroism is in the standing up alone and questioning the warmongers/paymasters motives.

Edit. BTW Chelsea Manning attempted suicide this week.

[dvbuk55]

Chilcott was a nothing...we went to war people died, that's a consequence of combat. You may have noticed nobody was to blame directly and no action will be taken.

I wish the world were as black and white for me as it is for you. Me personally, the older I get the less I know. Things become more "grey".

But of this I am sure - we'll know we have a civilised society when we have finally stop telling our innocent young sons, who we pay to go kill and be killed, that they are heroic.
A lot of lies, a lot of waste, suffering and futility - but not much heroism. The heroism is in the standing up alone and questioning the warmongers/paymasters motives.

Edit. BTW Chelsea Manning attempted suicide this week.

Do you know something jet, I and my brothers, a wife of one and two nephews served in the armed forces for well over 100 years, one still serving and one doing security work in Iraq. I wouldn't call the years we served in good times and in bad wasted, I would say more patriotic. You see some of us aren't afraid and want to hide in the shadows we faced whatever we had to and acted accordingly. As for a black and white world, absolutely you choose your side and stick by it, right or wrong. In your case it's wrong because you see a greyness, which just about sums up Corbyn, he is on a par with John Major with a touch of Michael Foot, a scruffy non-entity.

Chelsea Manning was found guilty by a court martial in the USA for treason, now what does his attempt at suicide tell you and why is it more significant than anyone who attempts suicide?

[jetblack]

Do you know something jet, I and my brothers, a wife of one and two nephews served in the armed forces for well over 100 years, one still serving and one doing security work in Iraq.

Yes, you needn't have said - I could have guessed it. Its an honourable profession, so long as the politicians have mobilised you in good faith and rightful purpose.

I wouldn't call the years we served in good times and in bad wasted, I would say more patriotic.

You were getting paid to do what you were told - and what you were told to do you didn't question. Even now you don't, and you are retired and entitled to.

You see some of us aren't afraid and want to hide in the shadows we faced whatever we had to and acted accordingly.

Heroism takes many different forms.

Chelsea Manning was found guilty by a court martial in the USA for treason, now what does his attempt at suicide tell you and why is it more significant than anyone who attempts suicide?

Chelsea Manning has been crucified for telling the truth. She shed a (very small) light on the atrocities that are being perpetrated in our names, and was crucified for it. Have a look at the July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike - or, the Granai Massacre. And as we both know, they are two drops in the ocean.


To bring all this back on topic (because I don't want this to degenerate into personal attacks), the Chilcott Report uequivocally detailed that there were in fact, as many of us knew at the time, no grounds whatsoever for the invasion of a country most British nationals (patriotic or not) could not pinpoint on a map.
It would therefore seem incumbent upon, in my view, those politicians who were complicit in giving the go ahead for such an invasion, the requirement to do the right thing and resign - given that up to 1 million (largely innocent) lives have been lost in the conflict to date.

Jeremy Corbyn was not amongst their number.


Or am I missing something here ? Doesn't a million lives amount to much these days ? Not till its in your face and on your doorstep ?

Resign - NOW - and, if you have a soul, beg forgiveness that it might be saved.