MRM.COM: Keep it safe Understanding when to use safe place

[meercat]

So we are being told if the porch door is closed and the letter box is inside on the internal door we bring the mail back??? ?

Can you read?
It doesn't say that at all.

Yes, yes it actually does. Can you read?

Are you going to leave it in their hedge? That's the other option other than bringing it back.

[meercat]

Posties have an implied right of access to the delivery point which is the door/letterbox. This right of access does not continue beyond a closed door.

So explain the situation with locked doors at the entrance to blocks of flats.

And what about closed garden gates?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Posties have an implied right of access to the delivery point which is the door/letterbox. This right of access does not continue beyond a closed door.

So explain the situation with locked doors at the entrance to blocks of flats.

And what about closed garden gates?

Are you being obtuse on purpose.

The gate is not the delivery point so you have implied rights of access to go beyond it.

The locked door is not the delivery point, you again have an implied right of access beyond the locked door (by code or key) to the official delivery point.

If you know there is a letter box beyond the porch door you can open the porch and deliver, becuase its reasonable to assume its a secure delivery point. You cant just drop them in the porch, as that patently is not a secure delivery point.

You do not have a right of access implied or otherwise beyond a delivery point, and Royal Mail cannot condone trespass. That's the point you are missing, do whatever you want, open their door with a spare key and put it on table if you want, just don't expect Royal Mail to say it's okay, because even with permission from the owner it is still technically trespass.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

So we are being told if the porch door is closed and the letter box is inside on the internal door we bring the mail back??? ?

Can you read?
It doesn't say that at all.

Yes, yes it actually does. Can you read?

Are you going to leave it in their hedge? That's the other option other than bringing it back.

I think you have read the link postman posted, ignored the context and taken it literally.

The link specifically mentions "First-time delivery" - that refers to packets and items that can't go through letterboxes

[meercat]

I'm not being deliberately obtuse I promise you-

You do not have a right of access implied or otherwise beyond a delivery point, and Royal Mail cannot condone trespass. That's the point you are missing,

NO. I am not and we have not been talking about going BEYOND a delivery point (letterbox)! Why would you want to anyway? I'm talking about a porch with a closed door and the letter box is on the internal door. The RM web guide says-

'If a porch door is closed, do not open the door to post the item.'

What does that mean to you? To me it means what it says which is if you have a packet which will fit through the internal letterbox you can NOT open a closed porch door to make that delivery. Isn't that what it says in plain English? Further it is obvious that if you have letters you also can NOT open a closed porch door to deliver them. I will quote again - 'If a porch door is closed, do not open the door '

But you contradict this???

If you know there is a letter box beyond the porch door you can open the porch and deliver

[TrueBlueTerrier]

The letterbox is the official delivery point. If the porch door is always closed but unlocked then open it and deliver the mail through the letter box - but don't leave parcels in the porch.

I now don't think you are being obtuse, but you do want Royal Mail to list every possible delivery situation and provide an official solution. That's impossible, sometimes you have to use common sense.

[Chewster]

But sometimes common sense goes completely against the rules. Common sense would dictate to me, and plenty other people, that a parcel would be safe in a recipients shed (lets assume here we know the recipient wants that, the shed is a designated safe place on the parcel, we know the area is safe, etc etc). But that's against the rules, as I can easily get there and thus any member of the public could get there too.

[Chewster]

OH, on the topic of closed porches, if the designated safe place on the parcel is enclosed front porch, is a postie allowed to open a porch in that situation? Assuming there is NOT a letterbox behind that porch in question. Same question for garages too actually

[TrueBlueTerrier]

But sometimes common sense goes completely against the rules. Common sense would dictate to me, and plenty other people, that a parcel would be safe in a recipients shed (lets assume here we know the recipient wants that, the shed is a designated safe place on the parcel, we know the area is safe, etc etc). But that's against the rules, as I can easily get there and thus any member of the public could get there too.

It may be "safe" but part of our remit is the also the security of Mail. If you can open a porch, shed, recycling bin or box in the back garden without locking it behind you. Is that secure?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

OH, on the topic of closed porches, if the designated safe place on the parcel is enclosed front porch, is a postie allowed to open a porch in that situation? Assuming there is NOT a letterbox behind that porch in question. Same question for garages too actually

Technically and legally - No.

But it does lead to the crux of the matter. If you know all the rules, guideline and instructions, but you also know and trust the resident, then what you do in each and every situation should be based on a balance of probabilities and an assessment of the personal risk you are taking.

If you know what you are doing is wrong, then do it, but do it with the full knowledge of the risks and consequences should anything go wrong. Royal Mail knows posties take chances, but they can't officially endorse those actions, even though they know the system would suffer without it.

One of Douglas Bader's favourite quotes was "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men". It doesn't mean you are a fool for following or wanting rules, but, for me, it means you use the rules to guide you in making judgement calls.