Seniority - Is it Logical?

[fishtank]

Everyone bar RM/CWU would say aptitude and ability is the most logical way. Length of service shouldn't be the only criterion.

Machine operator does have an aptitude and ability test for selection, you could argue that RM doesn't set the bar high enough but that's also the case with their "professional" staff, after your local council and teaching there's no better place to hide your professional inadequacy then this shower.

As for a postie, what aptitude and ability do you need to shove letters through a door ffs.
These guys screaming for seniority to end think they're better because they're faster, I'll ask the wife if faster is better, not telling whose wife though.

[Pathfinder]

No it's rediculous. Anyone who has the same job title, wears the same uniform and gets paid exactly the same isn't higher than me nor am I to anyone who hasn't been there as long as I have.

[tansorboy]

No it's rediculous. Anyone who has the same job title, wears the same uniform and gets paid exactly the same isn't higher than me nor am I to anyone who hasn't been there as long as I have.

Correct. The trouble is the seniors also get allowances, such as a driving allowance. I want mine back-dated, please!

[super-postie]

It stops management giving their favourites the pick of the duties. When I say favourites I mean the early birds and runners who dont take breaks thus making the boss look good where in actual fact management are extracting the p***. I cant think of a fairer system.

[crazyshrew]

As already mentioned it could be applied lawfully or unlawfully.
I understand that the legality of it was challenged and for the allocation of duties it was determined to be perfectly acceptable.
For allocating holidays it is not. hence the number of bizarre systems in place for sorting it (can't for the life of me work out how it's working in my office now!)

Imagine we were employees at Tesco and the senior man/woman got first dibs on which checkout they worked for the day, would you kick up a fuss about that?
Most people wouldn't because they can see that it's basically the same job.
OK, senior man might be a little more comfortable, further away from the main doors in the winter or closer to the air con in the summer but still sitting there for however many hours serving and engaging in chit chat with as many customers as he can manage in that time (If I remember rightly going back 10+ years there is a target speed for getting them through your checkout) and then going home at the end of his shift.

How is what we do not basically the same??
We have 8,7,6 hours to deliver as much as we can and then we go home. Some walks may be a little more comfortable but they should all be the same. If they are not it's down to the idiots who cut the job up.

Tesco man may be a little slower than his colleagues because he takes his time to do his job with care, doesn't break the eggs or smash the wine bottles. But home time is still home time, doesn't get anywhere by rushing.

[PHARRY]

Here's a question that will surely set the cat amongst the pigeons.

Is seniority logical?

I ask this question because RM/CWU seem to be one of the few establishments left which still place such an emphasis on seniority.
Seniority seems to come into play with regards to - Officially - Allocation of walks and unofficially - Overtime and Holiday Entitlement.
Is this the most fair system to use?

Example -
Senior Postie A - Terrible disciplinary, attendance and punctuality record.
Junior Postie B - Excellent disciplinary, attendance and punctuality record.

A walk becomes vacant and is advertised.
Guess who gets it?
Is seniority still the most fair system?

Your thoughts please.

No it's not fair

[Mezza]

The point i was trying to make is not that seniority necessarily gets you an easy walk - although obviously having first say on a walk that you know through experience is easier than others achieves this.

What i am saying is that the allocation of duty walks is not based on performance - and perhaps it should be.
Management and Rep could sit and analyze all the applicants and assess their performance so the best man wins.

If all applicants are equally suitable with regards to performance, attendance etc, then by all means seniority should then play a part in the decision.

Sound fair?

No, not at all fair.

Let's use your suggested system:
Your home is on a walk that is deemed a shitty one by all the posties in your local office.
Your postie therefore under your system, isn't particularly good at their job - or may even hardly ever turns up for work.

So you regularly get missorted mail, doorstepped packets or even no mail at al.
You never know what time your mail will turn up as when he's at work it's 11am and whenever he isn't it can be anytime........

You get the picture?
And so the office change the postie on your walk after repeat complaints and put another useless postie on your round (under your system) and it all goes on and on.

[genesis]

Just think- get rid of seniority ,by ignoring it ,massive change of duties triggers a repick- ignore that as well, then tell everyone if you held a duty for a year its yours . And you do not have to put it in a repick anyway if there was one.so whatever job your on now is potluck ,due to changes over the years to the duties. In our city office 11 years since anyone signed for a duty.
Scenario (extreme) longest serving postmen on worst job ,newbie on best .

[Bernardson]

Just think- get rid of seniority ,by ignoring it ,massive change of duties triggers a repick- ignore that as well, then tell everyone if you held a duty for a year its yours . And you do not have to put it in a repick anyway if there was one.so whatever job your on now is potluck ,due to changes over the years to the duties. In our city office 11 years since anyone signed for a duty.
Scenario (extreme) longest serving postmen on worst job ,newbie on best .

If you have had major change then you should have had a resign. Why did you not create an almighty row over this

[IloveMYredTROLLEY!]

In some respects, it would make sense if the OPGs with a better ability for IPS/parcel sorting or had a good memory for prepping "manual" mail on multiple frames were allocated more of their shift as indoor work and a smaller outdoor workload. The way planners allocate duty "x" does "y" amount of IPS before we know who is going to be duty holder "x" is not terribly efficient.

[Tman]

Machine operator does have an aptitude and ability test for selection,

They apply for the training course, (taken up in seniority order) do it, then sit on reserve for a while until a duty becomes vacant.
No-one ever gets told that they aren't suitable, that they've failed the training or that they're just basically not suited to the role.
So it still ends up with the old duffers struggling to remember a three-button sequence while someone younger waits.....

[trevjim]

its very outdated, picks should be done on performance reviews, or names out a hat type draw.

The people who have been there a long time, already have better contracts, better hourly rate and perks.

[motherhubbard]

The point i was trying to make is not that seniority necessarily gets you an easy walk - although obviously having first say on a walk that you know through experience is easier than others achieves this.

What i am saying is that the allocation of duty walks is not based on performance - and perhaps it should be.
Management and Rep could sit and analyze all the applicants and assess their performance so the best man wins.

If all applicants are equally suitable with regards to performance, attendance etc, then by all means seniority should then play a part in the decision.

Sound fair?

No, not at all fair.

Let's use your suggested system:
Your home is on a walk that is deemed a shitty one by all the posties in your local office.
Your postie therefore under your system, isn't particularly good at their job - or may even hardly ever turns up for work.

So you regularly get missorted mail, doorstepped packets or even no mail at al.
You never know what time your mail will turn up as when he's at work it's 11am and whenever he isn't it can be anytime........

You get the picture?
And so the office change the postie on your walk after repeat complaints and put another useless postie on your round (under your system) and it all goes on and on.

I don't understand how you have come to that conclusion.
If the walk is "unattractive", under the seniority way it will have an inexperienced postman on it, who may or may not do the things you have suggested.
Under the "performance" allocation of duties, if the round is deemed " difficult" it would be given to a postman who could cope with such a duty, so the things you have suggested are less likely to occur.

[miles_peters]

I think before you ask this question, you have to ask first...

how would I feel if I had 20 years plus seniority and someone new to the job was given a duty instead of me?

[Chewster]

It's unfair in certain aspects but on the whole I think it is pretty fair. Guarantee anybody moaning about seniority will change their tune as soon as they move further up the list. And I'm saying this as someone who is very far down the list indeed