Dragging it out

[TrueBlueTerrier]

But it's not the Unions job to police the workforce Its the managers job.

Postie A and postie B are on a van share together.
They complain bitterly every Weds - Sat that they won't complete with their heavy packets and want them taken off.


Every day they park up round the back of B&Q for 45 minutes. (Not their meal relief)

What does the rep do?

Nothing except to try and defend the idiots when they are caught.

The manager then decides that to recoup the money he is spending on overtime covering their packets he wants to lapse an extra duty on Monday and Tuesday.
What does the rep do?

Whatever he needs to to keep the status quo or ensure that the proposal does not break any of the agreements. You only lapse when you have the capacity to do so. I have hardly ever lapsed even on a Tuesday - and when I have it's because I have the capacity to do so.

Now I know in Fishtank's "best of all possible worlds" this can't happen but it is a real life scenario. The only thing I haven't done is fill in the names of the posties.

It's my world as well. It's better to protect the guilty, than surrender the rights of the innocent. Yes, it is as simple as that for me. I even try to help strike breakers help themselves if they are in the CWU. Many don't, whilst I understand why I don't agree with them.

In your world the union isn't there to police the workforce - so does he argue their case and implicate himself in their charade? Or what?

How does the rep implicate himself, unless he is sat in the van with them. Just because he is defending the "guilty" doesn't make him culpable for their actions.

The extra lapsing on Monday and Tuesday will take away overtime potential from other posties.

Only if there was no potential there already. A postie in my office gets more overtime on Tuesday because they cover the lapsed round when the other duties can't complete the lapse and/or their own duties.

Also, you can't complain on one hand about posties dragging it out and saying it's wrong, then complain when the resultant overtime dries up.

What the foot-draggers are doing is wrong, but you don't make it right by getting the Union to abrogate its members rights. Use peer pressure, in a not bullying way, if possible. If it really needles to you, complain directly to the manager. Use the processes that are in place, ie take action if you want, but don't surrender your rights, by withdrawing them from someone else.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

And the rep is currently dealing with one precautionary suspension after theft from a HCT.
One long term sick (back injury) where the business are looking for IHR but the postie doesn't want it.
A good friend of his in the DO has just been diagnosed with cancer and the prognosis isn't good.
And a table top revision is in the offing.

How much of the reps time should be dedicated to postie A and postie B?

None - until they are caught.

The foot-draggers shouldn't be foot dragging. The postie who left the HCT insecure enough that a theft occurred, shouldn't have. Both actions have implications on others, and you believe that the Union should decide who is worthy of representation and who isn't. I don't, both, or all should be represented if they have paid their subs.

If we are not going to represent them then we should have a policy that allows local membership to withdraw a member from the CWU, it could be known as the Kangaroo Agreement.

It's not a matching scenario but, we all know we shouldn't smoke or drink to excess, in fact, I do neither, but should I get better treatment in hospital - of course not everyone regardless of the cause of their illness or injury should be treated equally.

[jetblack]

If we are not going to represent them then we should have a policy that allows local membership to withdraw a member from the CWU

Yes - we should - thats a good idea. You might call it a kangaroo court if you wish - I'd call it local participatory democracy.

Doesn't matter what we call it - so long as crooks aren't able to abuse the system.

In some situations it seems to me that booting somebody out of the union might be a very good solution.

Let them get private representation - and pay the attendant costs themselves.

How would we decide wether to exclude them ? Look at the facts, and the witness testimony's of those directly involved.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

How would we decide wether to exclude them ? Look at the facts, and the witness testimony's of those directly involved.

Who would defend them before they are ejected, you cant look at the facts from one side, you have to weigh up both sides.

[motherhubbard]

What does the rep do?

Nothing except to try and defend the idiots when they are caught.

So when they ask the rep to speak to the manager about their workload, the rep should do nothing?
And how is that different to policing the workforce?

And if the rep does defend their position and they get caught, don't you think his influence will be undermined?
When he raises the case of posties C and D who are struggling to complete might the manager just say - you said that about A and B and look what they were doing.
Don't you think the rep's credibility will be undermined by his association with A and B?

I don't know if you are a saint or very naïve?

[postslippete]

Where is this thread going?


If the OP didnt like working with his partner he sees a manager, if that has no effect, he raises a grievance


Why would someone be booted out of the Union?? The Union are there to defend them first!! Even if they were obviously guilty and the manager and everyone else knew they were guilty - they still need to be trialled first. And just like in a court of law the Union are there to put their version forward. You can't be hung without trial first in a modern day democracy!!

And just think, if the CWU could boot them out of the Union - they could also say, boot someone else out of the Union for allegedly behaving like a troll !

[k979aaa]

I find that the people that work slow and are in no rush are loners they have nobody to go home to nobody to talk to from one night to another so that's basically why they don't want to get the job done and piss about all day.
You will also find that these clowns are big Dr Who or Star Wars fanatics that play with models after work when they get back to their bedsit.. The ones that rush about are completley different they want to get to a pub/bookies or have anther job and need to pick kids up. But for my money these loners want shoe up the hole for acting the goat day in day out..

What about the ones who come in 3 hours before their start time probably the tossers who run down to the pub/bookies sold their kids and wives for another drink/bet so they don't have to face the wives and kids bunch of loosers they are too who would come in before their time for nothing?

[Kings Norton]

I find that the people that work slow and are in no rush are loners they have nobody to go home to nobody to talk to from one night to another so that's basically why they don't want to get the job done and piss about all day.
You will also find that these clowns are big Dr Who or Star Wars fanatics that play with models after work when they get back to their bedsit.. The ones that rush about are completley different they want to get to a pub/bookies or have anther job and need to pick kids up. But for my money these loners want shoe up the hole for acting the goat day in day out..

What about the ones who come in 3 hours before their start time probably the tossers who run down to the pub/bookies sold their kids and wives for another drink/bet so they don't have to face the wives and kids bunch of loosers they are too who would come in before their time for nothing?

I take it you are one who drags it out go home for you're micro wave meal and start a jig saw puzzle till next morning?

[Deedlight]

I just saw some disgusting behavior from my colleagues in my office today and came here to vent, just to see this topic...

You can't have it both ways - if the guy finishing 1.5 hours per day later is going about things the right way, then the next step is to say that the guy who is finishing early (earlier) is cutting corners. Thats the problem.

What rubbish is this? It could be just a matter of one guy being fitter than the other, also often a question of the other guy being on the duty since forever, knowing it inside out and capable of doing the walk with his eyes closed. Not to mention the "faster" guy is probably a driver and the other is the walker, having done enough of those on both ends, to know the balance is just not there no matter what the drivers might claim.

On the matter of cutting corners: I have been in many offices due being sector reserve in the past and the general observation is the fast guys DO tend to cut corners but not the "negative" (for managers) way - by arriving early (unpaid), by prepping D2D in their own time (unpaid), by NEVER taking any paid breaks (skipping what's paid). Also almost never booking any over time, all too happy to present the company half an hour of their time on a heavy day.

To be fair, those are the true clowns that spoil the job.

And the supposed "scammer"? I have seen enough poor guys, mostly part timers, being slandered by their van share partners out of spite for slowing them down. Not always their fault, since most offices I have been at really fail at prepping the frames properly for the part timers, who are losing time throwing up the boxes and parcels they shouldn't be bothered with to begin with.
What scammer would announce their scam to everyone around, anyway? Rubbish.

That's what happened today when one of the young FT runner clowns keeps spreading rumors about a new guy who tries his best, just because he can't finish an hour early. I took my time to observe them couple past day and the runner who should be prepping the frame for the PT is doing nowhere near the job he should be doing. Result? PT loses 30-60 minutes due insufficiently prepped frame and that's why they finish on time or with slight overtime.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

So when they ask the rep to speak to the manager about their workload, the rep should do nothing?

No, he should investigate their claims. Ours does, he actually does the delivery itself, they do his. It's an unofficial arrangement but it works.

And how is that different to policing the workforce?

Policing is to catch the guilty, the Union defends both the guilty and the innocent without, hopefully, any pre-judgement.

And if the rep does defend their position and they get caught, don't you think his influence will be undermined?

In my honest opinion no. If he has acted in a fair and honest way, and if he did so he would easily spot the 45-minute hole in their duty.

When he raises the case of posties C and D who are struggling to complete might the manager just say - you said that about A and B and look what they were doing.

See above if he raised the case after making unbiased judgements and they were hiding for 45 minutes then he needs to consider his options.

Don't you think the rep's credibility will be undermined by his association with A and B?

If he was fair and unbiased no. But I think his credibility would be questioned if he withdrew his representation of the alleged foot draggers based on opinion.

I don't know if you are a saint or very naïve?

Neither, I just recognise that no system is perfect and never will be. Therefore, we have to protect the rights of everyone, not just those who we think are innocent.

At the risk of bringing Godwin's law into the debate, the Nazis removed rights from different peoples, because they made people believe they were guilty of something. Do we really want to take the tiniest step in that direction? I hope not.

[k979aaa]

I find that the people that work slow and are in no rush are loners they have nobody to go home to nobody to talk to from one night to another so that's basically why they don't want to get the job done and piss about all day.
You will also find that these clowns are big Dr Who or Star Wars fanatics that play with models after work when they get back to their bedsit.. The ones that rush about are completley different they want to get to a pub/bookies or have anther job and need to pick kids up. But for my money these loners want shoe up the hole for acting the goat day in day out..

What about the ones who come in 3 hours before their start time probably the tossers who run down to the pub/bookies sold their kids and wives for another drink/bet so they don't have to face the wives and kids bunch of loosers they are too who would come in before their time for nothing?

I take it you are one who drags it out go home for you're micro wave meal and start a jig saw puzzle till next morning?

No I just defend the job and don't carve it up for the bonus culture which you profit from at some stage in your career thanks for the heads up about us all by the way.

[jetblack]

You can't have it both ways - if the guy finishing 1.5 hours per day later is going about things the right way, then the next step is to say that the guy who is finishing early (earlier) is cutting corners. Thats the problem.

What rubbish is this? It could be just a matter of one guy being fitter than the other, also often a question of the other guy being on the duty since forever, knowing it inside out and capable of doing the walk with his eyes closed. Not to mention the "faster" guy is probably a driver and the other is the walker, having done enough of those on both ends, to know the balance is just not there no matter what the drivers might claim.

Yes - I should have said - all things being equal (reasonable level of fitness - been on job for min. 6 months)

[jetblack]

You can't have it both ways - if the guy finishing 1.5 hours per day later is going about things the right way, then the next step is to say that the guy who is finishing early (earlier) is cutting corners. Thats the problem.

What rubbish is this? It could be just a matter of one guy being fitter than the other, also often a question of the other guy being on the duty since forever, knowing it inside out and capable of doing the walk with his eyes closed. Not to mention the "faster" guy is probably a driver and the other is the walker, having done enough of those on both ends, to know the balance is just not there no matter what the drivers might claim.

Yes - I should have said - all things being equal (reasonable level of fitness - been on job for min. 6 months)

... having 2 legs. Being able to see. Knowing that there isn't really a Father Christmas

[bustedflush]

This thread goes from stalemate to circles. It seems that my earlier view that these people are known about by other posties and DIMs, and a 'convenient' compromise is reached is the least harmful to all parties.

They work with their own van or paired with each other. They only get OT in exceptional circumstances. So the rep isn't involved, the DIMs don't get the majority who want to do the job efficiently complaining and the obtusely slow and inefficient don't get called to account and picked on.

It's the least divisive and antagonistic solution for all concerned. Not saying it's right or completely acceptable though, but we've all got to get on with it at the end of the day.

[motherhubbard]

So when they ask the rep to speak to the manager about their workload, the rep should do nothing?

No, he should investigate their claims. Ours does, he actually does the delivery itself, they do his. It's an unofficial arrangement but it works.

So the scenario I outlined couldn't exist in your DO because the rep would have done the duty and reported back to the manager that it was achievable within the contracted hours. (Or grassed them up as they will undoubtedly see it?)
So the next time they attempt to cut off the manager will be able to tell them that the duty is achievable because the rep says so.
Whether you like the vocabulary or not, your rep is policing the office. As a rep he probably knows he has to because if you let something toxic fester in your DO it will eventually, like Japanese knotweed, begin to undermine the foundations.