One wave

[steve1873]

What if the one wave comes in fully sequenced at 6.30am - we leave office at 7.30am - break for 30mins at 10.30am - finish delivering by 2.30pm?
Yes its a long delivery but at least we get 8hrs pay and were not out till late afternoon/evening.
These machines will come at some point lets hope our union can come up with a workable solution.

How are you getting a single wave in at 06:30? It is physically and logistically impossible. As for the half hour break at 10:30, great - they also going to include travelling time to and from DO to have this break?

[motherhubbard]

If the cwu wanted to oppose this I'd guess a very good start would be to compare the amount of people going off sick or retiring due to ill health, since the walks have been made bigger.

At a guess I'd say that number has risen dramatically

When I started, around 15 years or so ago, I don't remember anyone being off with injuries like this. There was the odd 'bad back' when someone wanted a week off but these are now genuine injuries that will affect people for life.

Larger walks as well as poor footwear is only going to make that number rise.

How do you know the injuries are due to 3/4 years of longer deliveries and not the cumulative effects of carrying a bag for the 10 years previous to that?
You don't remember people being off sick with injuries 15 years ago?
In the year before longer deliveries were introduced we had people off with neck, shoulder, (serious) back, hip and foot injuries. 2 off after knee surgery and 2 off after hernia operations.
And how many of the current injuries are due to not using the correct equipment?

As you say you are only guessing that the number has risen dramatically ....
What if the reality is that amongst those that do the job properly it hasn't risen at all?

[steve1873]

If the cwu wanted to oppose this I'd guess a very good start would be to compare the amount of people going off sick or retiring due to ill health, since the walks have been made bigger.

At a guess I'd say that number has risen dramatically

When I started, around 15 years or so ago, I don't remember anyone being off with injuries like this. There was the odd 'bad back' when someone wanted a week off but these are now genuine injuries that will affect people for life.

Larger walks as well as poor footwear is only going to make that number rise.

How do you know the injuries are due to 3/4 years of longer deliveries and not the cumulative effects of carrying a bag for the 10 years previous to that?
You don't remember people being off sick with injuries 15 years ago?
In the year before longer deliveries were introduced we had people off with neck, shoulder, (serious) back, hip and foot injuries. 2 off after knee surgery and 2 off after hernia operations.
And how many of the current injuries are due to not using the correct equipment?

As you say you are only guessing that the number has risen dramatically ....
What if the reality is that amongst those that do the job properly it hasn't risen at all?

Without attempting to turn this in to a schoolyard argument - how do you know either way?

The fact is, statistics can be manipulated to tell any story someone wants - you yourself have used the possibilty of injuries being due to past events.

The fact is, the job is more physically demanding now than it ever was previously, even using the proper equipment. The fact is, my delivery office has seen injuries and sick levels increase since advent of longer deliveries, and I gather this is evident in offices the length and breadth of the country. Now, do we know the cause of that increase? No, because every case would have to be analysed individually. However we can use the increase to form a reasonable assumption that longer deliveries are a contributing factor to many such injuries. Based on this assumption we can also make a further REASONABLE assumption that further increase in delivery lengths would see a further elevated level of sick leave and injuries. To suggest this not being the case, is in effect and with the greatest of respect, sticking your head in the sand.

I am a reasonably fit, 34 year old man. Been in the job only 11 years (our methods revision went in about 30 months ago) and based on how I feel most days, I cannot see me lasting another 11 years. I have been on annual leave this week and my body still feels like it is recovering from the grind and torture of the previous week.

[mancpat]

If the cwu wanted to oppose this I'd guess a very good start would be to compare the amount of people going off sick or retiring due to ill health, since the walks have been made bigger.

At a guess I'd say that number has risen dramatically

When I started, around 15 years or so ago, I don't remember anyone being off with injuries like this. There was the odd 'bad back' when someone wanted a week off but these are now genuine injuries that will affect people for life.

Larger walks as well as poor footwear is only going to make that number rise.

How do you know the injuries are due to 3/4 years of longer deliveries and not the cumulative effects of carrying a bag for the 10 years previous to that?
You don't remember people being off sick with injuries 15 years ago?
In the year before longer deliveries were introduced we had people off with neck, shoulder, (serious) back, hip and foot injuries. 2 off after knee surgery and 2 off after hernia operations.
And how many of the current injuries are due to not using the correct equipment?

As you say you are only guessing that the number has risen dramatically ....
What if the reality is that amongst those that do the job properly it hasn't risen at all?

Without attempting to turn this in to a schoolyard argument - how do you know either way?

The fact is, statistics can be manipulated to tell any story someone wants - you yourself have used the possibilty of injuries being due to past events.

The fact is, the job is more physically demanding now than it ever was previously, even using the proper equipment. The fact is, my delivery office has seen injuries and sick levels increase since advent of longer deliveries, and I gather this is evident in offices the length and breadth of the country. Now, do we know the cause of that increase? No, because every case would have to be analysed individually. However we can use the increase to form a reasonable assumption that longer deliveries are a contributing factor to many such injuries. Based on this assumption we can also make a further REASONABLE assumption that further increase in delivery lengths would see a further elevated level of sick leave and injuries. To suggest this not being the case, is in effect and with the greatest of respect, sticking your head in the sand.

I am a reasonably fit, 34 year old man. Been in the job only 11 years (our methods revision went in about 30 months ago) and based on how I feel most days, I cannot see me lasting another 11 years. I have been on annual leave this week and my body still feels like it is recovering from the grind and torture of the previous week.

This pretty much answers the point for me.

Also I didn't sat it was a fact. But I die say that if the cwu did look at these facts they may show some staggering figures.

Has there been an increase in confirmed foot injuries such as plantar faciatis (or whatever it's called) since revisions?

If so look at the causes of such injuries. Can they be linked? I'd guess so.

Bad backs were common back then because some people wanted time off so used this excuse. But mainly because we all used to over fill our bags and carry them to avoid waiting for bag drops. We didn't have the equipment we have now.

But that may have saved our backs, but you can't save your feet.

How many people know what mortons neuroma is? Up until recently I had no idea. However in the last few years I've known 3 postmen suffer from it. All with different years of service and different ages so it's not just wear and tear on 60 year old fellas nearing retirement.

The stats may prove nothing. But it's worth looking at from a union perspective

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Well maybe they could make it happen, nothings impossible.

unfortunately Royal Mail want to give the firms that give us large volumes, a wider window at the Mail Centres, they are also wanting to push 1 day delivery in a big way. All this means that, as predicted earlier, the only wave is more likely to be later than the current last wave.

[Chelseablue]

Totally agree with Steve , the injuries have went up since the longer deliveries and new way of working . Sick absence is up by a mile , knees , shoulders , shin splints, foot injuries , esp among olderish guys. Yeah years ago there was a few back complaints , now it's joint problems etc , the job is so physical now . This should be a health and safety no no , privatisation should not equal slavery .

[fishtank]

And how many of the current injuries are due to not using the correct equipment?

That's almost entirely irrelevant to the argument surely?

If you bring in a flawed safe system of work and then do absolutely nothing to make sure it's followed and in fact encourage staff to ignore it through both the reward of finishing early and in other cases punishment by harassment for not completing on time then you're culpable.

If as a union you build an agreement based around this in the full knowledge it won't be followed you're culpable.

If you're the OPG you' may also be culpable but you're not alone by any means.

[motherhubbard]

And how many of the current injuries are due to not using the correct equipment?

That's almost entirely irrelevant to the argument surely?

No. The argument is - longer deliveries leads to more injuries.
The counter argument is that non use of the correct methods is leading to an increase in injuries.
Apportioning blame isn't on the menu.

And my name isn't Shirley.

[rainbowwarrior72]

I think we will have to wait for the results of these tests in Walsall and Exeter. The main problem RM have is the fact that in a lot of areas they put in flawed revisions because they got their figures wrong and won't admit they got it wrong and compounding their errors by carrying on.

[halfull]

And how many of the current injuries are due to not using the correct equipment?

That's almost entirely irrelevant to the argument surely?

No. The argument is - longer deliveries leads to more injuries.
The counter argument is that non use of the correct methods is leading to an increase in injuries.
Apportioning blame isn't on the menu.

And my name isn't Shirley.

longer deliveries cause more wear and tear end of.
Too say anything else is just silly.
Its like saying car that does one one hundred thousand miles per year is not getting more wear & tear than a car doing 5 thousand miles per year. Its basic common sense, we are doing alot more walking than ever before hence the rise in sick, joint problems, mental stress etc.
And to say another 2-3 hours delivering ontop of what we already do wont make things worse is quite shocking.

[bogstandard]

And how many of the current injuries are due to not using the correct equipment?

That's almost entirely irrelevant to the argument surely?

No. The argument is - longer deliveries leads to more injuries.
The counter argument is that non use of the correct methods is leading to an increase in injuries.
Apportioning blame isn't on the menu.

And my name isn't Shirley.

longer deliveries cause more wear and tear end of.
Too say anything else is just silly.
Its like saying car that does one one hundred thousand miles per year is not getting more wear & tear than a car doing 5 thousand miles per year. Its basic common sense, we are doing alot more walking than ever before hence the rise in sick, joint problems, mental stress etc.
And to say another 2-3 hours delivering ontop of what we already do wont make things worse is quite shocking.

and to continue the analogy, if the car is missing a wheel (not using the correct equipment) then this would effect the performance of the car as well as wear and tear.
Point being longer deliveries and not using the right equipment (in some areas) go hand in hand and trying to decipher the facts from the figures is a job on its own. Noone is going to say they have continued delivering mail from bags worn bandelero style and have been ever since they started when the agreement states tools for the job.

[fishtank]

No. The argument is - longer deliveries leads to more injuries.
The counter argument is that non use of the correct methods is leading to an increase in injuries.
Apportioning blame isn't on the menu.

And my name isn't Shirley.

It isn't a counter-argument if you know of and encourage the non use of the correct methods, then the act of lengthening the deliveries with that knowledge becomes the cause.
It's a simple cause and effect scenario.

If the business has been proactive in ensuring the use of the correct methods, If the union had held the business to account over the word "mandatory" in the agreement, If both the business and the union had adequately tackled the pressure placed on members to complete unrealistic deliveries, If the top down bullying culture in the business had been tackled then perhaps the direct causal link between lengthening deliveries and increased ill health could be more easily blurred but since there are no definitive figures either way that could be trusted it's a dead end argument anyway.

Sorry Susan.

[halfull]

And how many of the current injuries are due to not using the correct equipment?

That's almost entirely irrelevant to the argument surely?

No. The argument is - longer deliveries leads to more injuries.
The counter argument is that non use of the correct methods is leading to an increase in injuries.
Apportioning blame isn't on the menu.

And my name isn't Shirley.

longer deliveries cause more wear and tear end of.
Too say anything else is just silly.
Its like saying car that does one one hundred thousand miles per year is not getting more wear & tear than a car doing 5 thousand miles per year. Its basic common sense, we are doing alot more walking than ever before hence the rise in sick, joint problems, mental stress etc.
And to say another 2-3 hours delivering ontop of what we already do wont make things worse is quite shocking.

and to continue the analogy, if the car is missing a wheel (not using the correct equipment) then this would effect the performance of the car as well as wear and tear.
Point being longer deliveries and not using the right equipment (in some areas) go hand in hand and trying to decipher the facts from the figures is a job on its own. Noone is going to say they have continued delivering mail from bags worn bandelero style and have been ever since they started when the agreement states tools for the job.

so if somebody uses the right equipment & delivers for 3:30 - 4 hours everyday & the same person uses the right equipment & delivers for 6 - 6:30 hours everyday you tell me which one would put more wear & tear on the body? We are not dumb here, longer deliveries means more wear & tear, more wear and tear means more sick from all sorts of problems.
Plus pushing or pulling a lwt trolley loaded with 32kg up a hill is alot harder than breaking a walk down to small bundles & doing it that way.

[paulf0203]

can see the argument from the company that they want to offer next day delivery to their customers the same as their competitors do but the competitors deliver by van and not on foot like us and doing a longer delivery span will be counter productive due to injuries and the health and safety aspect of working in the dark so isn't there scope for packet and parcel delivery (next day only) and one for post and non urgent packets and parcels starting at the times we are now and I know that will create two types of delivery people but so what. With all the mail being sequenced we could still extend the walks and the excess staff doing the next day parcels and packets round. just an idea that maybe could be developed by more experienced posties but we need to think of alternatives or what RM are proposing will be in before we know it.

[daveyeff]

I think we will have to wait for the results of these tests in Walsall and Exeter. The main problem RM have is the fact that in a lot of areas they put in flawed revisions because they got their figures wrong and won't admit they got it wrong and compounding their errors by carrying on.

the trial in Exeter has been rather flawed by all accounts, the mail has been coming in as late as 1pm. having said that, it may be exactly what RM want.