Jes we can Labour

[Tman]

We don't need these people.
1. Yes we do need immigration because it is and always has been wealth creating.

If that's the case Heinrich, they how come the "poorer" countries in the migrants' path can't wait to move them on? You'd think all those "Wealth
creators" would be welcomed and retained, if they're that productive?
The Huguenots were pretty good, as were the Jews and Ugandan Asians too, but realistically, how many more kebab and phone shops does the country need?
Or maybe it's just another of those myths spun to justify multiculturalism?

[motherhubbard]

Now as for immigration being a wealth creator believe me I've yet to see it, unless you count child trafficking, insurance scams and steaming through shops by the gypsies.

I think you have embarrassed yourself enough in this thread.
To suggest all immigrants are involved in child trafficking etc is just more vile racist garbage.
It is as stupid as saying all refugees are like Mo Farah or Luka Modric. But like any good racist you are happy to lump THEM all together.

Anyway before you shuffle off to the Bingo at the nursing home this evening here is an article from the Torygraph (well known for its lentil eaters) It includes quotes from other well known petty do gooders such as Margot James (Conservative MP) and John Cridland of the CBI (who probably wears a cardigan made out of lentils.)

“The role of immigrants in wealth creation [shouldn’t] be underestimated. Many people are attracted by Britain’s growing reputation as being a good place to start a business,” Ms James said.
“The day people are put off by the constant negative rhetoric about people coming to this country, and stop coming, is the day we will have far more to worry about.”
It was also in this paper where John Cridland of the Confederation of Business Industry (CBI) praised the impact of immigration.
“Immigration has helped keep the wheels of this recovery turning by plugging skills shortages. Without free movement of workers, the recovery would grind to a halt,” he said.
Meanwhile most of the national newspapers splashed on Wednesday with University College London analysis that found skilled migrant workers from the EU boost the UK’s finances by £20bn in the last ten years.
Almost £5bn was contributed to the British economy by recent immigrants arriving since 2000 from the A10 countries which include Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Romania.
And the net fiscal contributions of recent European immigrants from the rest of the EU totalled £15bn. Individuals from outside of the EU contributed £5bn in the years between 2001 and 2011.
But those who have recently moved to the UK from Central and Eastern European countries gave 12 per cent more in taxes than they took away through welfare payments of any kind.

[motherhubbard]

We don't need these people.
1. Yes we do need immigration because it is and always has been wealth creating.

If that's the case Heinrich, they how come the "poorer" countries in the migrants' path can't wait to move them on? You'd think all those "Wealth
creators" would be welcomed and retained, if they're that productive?
The Huguenots were pretty good, as were the Jews and Ugandan Asians too, but realistically, how many more kebab and phone shops does the country need?
Or maybe it's just another of those myths spun to justify multiculturalism?

The "we do need immigration" sentence was in response to the idiot's assertion that we should stop all immigration.
Obviously there are 2 separate threads here - how do we respond to a refugee crisis, and how do we deal with immigration.

You also need to be very careful as you seem to be agreeing that some immigration can be positive.
What is Busted going to do if he loses his only friend?

How do you think some people reacted when the Huguenots arrived? Were the Jews unanimously welcomed or the Ugandan Asians?
What happened to the rivers of blood after the Windrush docked?
Did the world end when the Poles arrived?
No because every wave of immigration is met with hostility and scaremongering by vile little racists like Busted and every time they are proved to be wrong.
Because the basis of their politics is ignorance and fear. They have no place in a grown up world.
And the British people will continue to do what they have always done - offer the hand of friendship to people in need , in spite of the horrible little gobshites who call themselves patriotic.

[Tman]

You also need to be very careful as you seem to be agreeing that some immigration can be positive.
What is Busted going to do if he loses his only friend?

I dunno, I'd be more surprised if you stuck to the point and stop with the biting put-downs (which, sadly, you just can't seem to carry off). They really don't show your argument in a good light.

How do you think some people reacted when the Huguenots arrived? Were the Jews unanimously welcomed or the Ugandan Asians?
What happened to the rivers of blood after the Windrush docked?
Did the world end when the Poles arrived?
No because every wave of immigration is met with hostility and scaremongering by vile little racists like Busted and every time they are proved to be wrong.
Because the basis of their politics is ignorance and fear. They have no place in a grown up world.
And the British people will continue to do what they have always done - offer the hand of friendship to people in need , in spite of the horrible little gobshites who call themselves patriotic.

[/quote]
You make some points which are debateable, and over-generalise to the nth degree.
Your tone is sneering and generally perjorative, and for those reasons alone you critically damage your own standpoint.
The bottom line is an ever-decreasing cake is being cut ever-more thinly, and more deserving cases (than those who are storming the EU's Southern borders) are suffering, and although the more woolly-minded may attempt to dress any concerns raised as "ignorant" or "fearful" the general populace aren't as stupid as politicians would like to think.
Seventy million and growing......

[tiggle]

Now as for immigration being a wealth creator believe me I've yet to see it, unless you count child trafficking, insurance scams and steaming through shops by the gypsies.

I think you have embarrassed yourself enough in this thread.
To suggest all immigrants are involved in child trafficking etc is just more vile racist garbage.
It is as stupid as saying all refugees are like Mo Farah or Luka Modric. But like any good racist you are happy to lump THEM all together.

Anyway before you shuffle off to the Bingo at the nursing home this evening here is an article from the Torygraph (well known for its lentil eaters) It includes quotes from other well known petty do gooders such as Margot James (Conservative MP) and John Cridland of the CBI (who probably wears a cardigan made out of lentils.)

“The role of immigrants in wealth creation [shouldn’t] be underestimated. Many people are attracted by Britain’s growing reputation as being a good place to start a business,” Ms James said.
“The day people are put off by the constant negative rhetoric about people coming to this country, and stop coming, is the day we will have far more to worry about.”
It was also in this paper where John Cridland of the Confederation of Business Industry (CBI) praised the impact of immigration.
“Immigration has helped keep the wheels of this recovery turning by plugging skills shortages. Without free movement of workers, the recovery would grind to a halt,” he said.
Meanwhile most of the national newspapers splashed on Wednesday with University College London analysis that found skilled migrant workers from the EU boost the UK’s finances by £20bn in the last ten years.
Almost £5bn was contributed to the British economy by recent immigrants arriving since 2000 from the A10 countries which include Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Romania.
And the net fiscal contributions of recent European immigrants from the rest of the EU totalled £15bn. Individuals from outside of the EU contributed £5bn in the years between 2001 and 2011.
But those who have recently moved to the UK from Central and Eastern European countries gave 12 per cent more in taxes than they took away through welfare payments of any kind.

Im not surprised the CBI supports immigration,a surplus in the labour market keeps wages lower,we wouldn't have zero hour contracts if there were fewer folk chasing each vacancy,Also its not as simle as they pay 12% more in taxes etc,is there a calculation on the increased pressure on schools,housing and hospitals.Not to mention the cost of all the wefare payments being paid to unemployed British.If we have a skills shortage,we should train people instead of allowing poorer countries to go to the expense

[motherhubbard]

You make some points which are debateable, and over-generalise to the nth degree.
Your tone is sneering and generally perjorative, and for those reasons alone you critically damage your own standpoint.

Seventy million and growing......

Aren't all points debateable? Isn't that the point of a forum?
Yet my points aren't designed to denigrate a people. They do this. They do that. As though they are cattle. As if "Muslim" is one homogenous lump despite Sunni and Shia killing each other.
So DVB states that immigrants are involved in child trafficking etc yet I over generalise?
Busted claims that for every genuine refugee there are 100 terrorists yet I over generalise?
DVB states he doesn't care that children are dying (undoubtedly the most offensive statement I have ever read on this board) yet I am sneering and generally pejorative.
It doesn't damage my standpoint in the slightest.
I doubt anyone reading this thread will be impressed by your arguments. Racist. Inhumane. Unbritish.

[Tman]

I doubt anyone reading this thread will be impressed by your arguments. Racist. Inhumane. Unbritish.

I rather doubt the same for yours, too. The same old screechy nonsense mixed in with some pat put-downs.
"UnBritish" though? Are you now claiming to have tapped into some previously-unknown national psyche, or speak for the Silent Majority?
That's the way of the nutter. Please elucidate.

[bustedflush]

Now as for immigration being a wealth creator believe me I've yet to see it, unless you count child trafficking, insurance scams and steaming through shops by the gypsies.

I think you have embarrassed yourself enough in this thread.
To suggest all immigrants are involved in child trafficking etc is just more vile racist garbage.
It is as stupid as saying all refugees are like Mo Farah or Luka Modric. But like any good racist you are happy to lump THEM all together.

Anyway before you shuffle off to the Bingo at the nursing home this evening here is an article from the Torygraph (well known for its lentil eaters) It includes quotes from other well known petty do gooders such as Margot James (Conservative MP) and John Cridland of the CBI (who probably wears a cardigan made out of lentils.)

“The role of immigrants in wealth creation [shouldn’t] be underestimated. Many people are attracted by Britain’s growing reputation as being a good place to start a business,” Ms James said.
“The day people are put off by the constant negative rhetoric about people coming to this country, and stop coming, is the day we will have far more to worry about.”
It was also in this paper where John Cridland of the Confederation of Business Industry (CBI) praised the impact of immigration.
“Immigration has helped keep the wheels of this recovery turning by plugging skills shortages. Without free movement of workers, the recovery would grind to a halt,” he said.
Meanwhile most of the national newspapers splashed on Wednesday with University College London analysis that found skilled migrant workers from the EU boost the UK’s finances by £20bn in the last ten years.
Almost £5bn was contributed to the British economy by recent immigrants arriving since 2000 from the A10 countries which include Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Romania.
And the net fiscal contributions of recent European immigrants from the rest of the EU totalled £15bn. Individuals from outside of the EU contributed £5bn in the years between 2001 and 2011.
But those who have recently moved to the UK from Central and Eastern European countries gave 12 per cent more in taxes than they took away through welfare payments of any kind.

Im not surprised the CBI supports immigration,a surplus in the labour market keeps wages lower,we wouldn't have zero hour contracts if there were fewer folk chasing each vacancy,Also its not as simle as they pay 12% more in taxes etc,is there a calculation on the increased pressure on schools,housing and hospitals.Not to mention the cost of all the wefare payments being paid to unemployed British.If we have a skills shortage,we should train people instead of allowing poorer countries to go to the expense

Well, as said Mother has blown his arguments out of the water just by the insults and vile invective used. Your point is a contradiction of a the continual propaganda we are fed about the 'benefits'. As you say how are these figures calculated? Mother quotes TORY MP's!!! (I love the irony!) whose only interest is cheap labour and denial of the fact we've enough cheap labour available with 2 million idle. Most of this calculation, or possibly all IS GROWTH VIA NECESSITATING INCREASED EXPENDITURE ON SCHOOLS, HOUSING AND HOSPITALS AND OTHER TAXPAYER-FUNDED OR BORROWED PUBLIC SERVICES!

So explain this:
Ahmed arrives with little or no English skills. He gets himself a manual job paying 14k. Assuming his employer is kosher, he will pay approx. £1.1k to the exchequer in tax&NI. Giving him the benefit of the doubt that he has no children, he soon produces 3 as Britain is known as a nation that pays incomers to out-breed the existing populace. He will probably have assisted rent at the expense of the local taxpayer or assistance via tax credits. His woman will have £48.10 a WEEK in child benefits too. So in 5 years he pays IN 5.5k. The child benefit alone his family receives is 2.5k pa. Tax credits too. The 3 children then each arrive at school (depending of which figure you take a cost of 8-10k per annum to the taxpayer.) Not even bothering with health care how on earth can a person whose wife stays at home, has 3 kids, at school possibly be 'contributing'. Prithee tell me, it doesn't add-up.

In an unskilled job in 5 years he pays in a max of 5.5k. The chid benefit exceeds that just for the FIRST child.

Perhaps Mother can get his pen and paper out and demonstrate in clear figures how this economic migrant is 'contributing' and 'making all our lives better and more prosperous'.????

I'm even being generous here, assuming a job in the first place.

P.S. Mother mentions the Sunni and Shi'ite muslim conflicts. Naturally, having just ended decades of Ulster conflict, we REALLY need to import the factions into the UK, don't we? (If I fell to Mother's level I could easily add a personal insult here.)

[tiggle]

Now as for immigration being a wealth creator believe me I've yet to see it, unless you count child trafficking, insurance scams and steaming through shops by the gypsies.

I think you have embarrassed yourself enough in this thread.
To suggest all immigrants are involved in child trafficking etc is just more vile racist garbage.
It is as stupid as saying all refugees are like Mo Farah or Luka Modric. But like any good racist you are happy to lump THEM all together.

Anyway before you shuffle off to the Bingo at the nursing home this evening here is an article from the Torygraph (well known for its lentil eaters) It includes quotes from other well known petty do gooders such as Margot James (Conservative MP) and John Cridland of the CBI (who probably wears a cardigan made out of lentils.)

“The role of immigrants in wealth creation [shouldn’t] be underestimated. Many people are attracted by Britain’s growing reputation as being a good place to start a business,” Ms James said.
“The day people are put off by the constant negative rhetoric about people coming to this country, and stop coming, is the day we will have far more to worry about.”
It was also in this paper where John Cridland of the Confederation of Business Industry (CBI) praised the impact of immigration.
“Immigration has helped keep the wheels of this recovery turning by plugging skills shortages. Without free movement of workers, the recovery would grind to a halt,” he said.
Meanwhile most of the national newspapers splashed on Wednesday with University College London analysis that found skilled migrant workers from the EU boost the UK’s finances by £20bn in the last ten years.
Almost £5bn was contributed to the British economy by recent immigrants arriving since 2000 from the A10 countries which include Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Romania.
And the net fiscal contributions of recent European immigrants from the rest of the EU totalled £15bn. Individuals from outside of the EU contributed £5bn in the years between 2001 and 2011.
But those who have recently moved to the UK from Central and Eastern European countries gave 12 per cent more in taxes than they took away through welfare payments of any kind.

Im not surprised the CBI supports immigration,a surplus in the labour market keeps wages lower,we wouldn't have zero hour contracts if there were fewer folk chasing each vacancy,Also its not as simle as they pay 12% more in taxes etc,is there a calculation on the increased pressure on schools,housing and hospitals.Not to mention the cost of all the wefare payments being paid to unemployed British.If we have a skills shortage,we should train people instead of allowing poorer countries to go to the expense

Well, as said Mother has blown his arguments out of the water just by the insults and vile invective used. Your point is a contradiction of a the continual propaganda we are fed about the 'benefits'. As you say how are these figures calculated? Mother quotes TORY MP's!!! (I love the irony!) whose only interest is cheap labour and denial of the fact we've enough cheap labour available with 2 million idle. Most of this calculation, or possibly all IS GROWTH VIA NECESSITATING INCREASED EXPENDITURE ON SCHOOLS, HOUSING AND HOSPITALS AND OTHER TAXPAYER-FUNDED OR BORROWED PUBLIC SERVICES!

So explain this:
Ahmed arrives with little or no English skills. He gets himself a manual job paying 14k. Assuming his employer is kosher, he will pay approx. £1.1k to the exchequer in tax&NI. Giving him the benefit of the doubt that he has no children, he soon produces 3 as Britain is known as a nation that pays incomers to out-breed the existing populace. He will probably have assisted rent at the expense of the local taxpayer or assistance via tax credits. His woman will have £48.10 a WEEK in child benefits too. So in 5 years he pays IN 5.5k. The child benefit alone his family receives is 2.5k pa. Tax credits too. The 3 children then each arrive at school (depending of which figure you take a cost of 8-10k per annum to the taxpayer.) Not even bothering with health care how on earth can a person whose wife stays at home, has 3 kids, at school possibly be 'contributing'. Prithee tell me, it doesn't add-up.

In an unskilled job in 5 years he pays in a max of 5.5k. The chid benefit exceeds that just for the FIRST child.

Perhaps Mother can get his pen and paper out and demonstrate in clear figures how this economic migrant is 'contributing' and 'making all our lives better and more prosperous'.????

I'm even being generous here, assuming a job in the first place.

P.S. Mother mentions the Sunni and Shi'ite muslim conflicts. Naturally, having just ended decades of Ulster conflict, we REALLY need to import the factions into the UK, don't we? (If I fell to Mother's level I could easily add a personal insult here.)

At the governments request former cbi president lord valance compiled a report on the affects of immigration " they show unequivocally that the benefits of the current immigration policy on ordinary uk citizens are largely non existent" has had a negative impact on the low paid and training for young people,and has contributed to higher house prices And added"looking to the future,if you have that increase in numbers and you haven't got any economic benefit from it,you have to ask yourself,is it a wise thing to do?"

[dvbuk55]

Now as for immigration being a wealth creator believe me I've yet to see it, unless you count child trafficking, insurance scams and steaming through shops by the gypsies.

I think you have embarrassed yourself enough in this thread..

I can see in future motherhubbard will be at the top of the moral high ground whilst begging on the street corner from the wealthy migrants. Take a look around you silly woman, there are probably OAPs and children in the very street where you live for whom you have less compassion apparently than for the hordes invading Europe's borders to whom we have no responsibility whatsoever other than in your misguided head. As I've said before mother put your money where your mouth is and take a couple in a tent in your back garden. Just as a matter of interest exactly how much have you contributed to the great welfare kick - talk is most definitely cheap in your case.

[bustedflush]

Now as for immigration being a wealth creator believe me I've yet to see it, unless you count child trafficking, insurance scams and steaming through shops by the gypsies.

I think you have embarrassed yourself enough in this thread..

I can see in future motherhubbard will be at the top of the moral high ground whilst begging on the street corner from the wealthy migrants. Take a look around you silly woman, there are probably OAPs and children in the very street where you live for whom you have less compassion apparently than for the hordes invading Europe's borders to whom we have no responsibility whatsoever other than in your misguided head. As I've said before mother put your money where your mouth is and take a couple in a tent in your back garden. Just as a matter of interest exactly how much have you contributed to the great welfare kick - talk is most definitely cheap in your case.

Perhaps Mother will feel hungry after all his flaming and pop in here for a bite to eat .......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-no ... e-34337626

[dvbuk55]

Now as for immigration being a wealth creator believe me I've yet to see it, unless you count child trafficking, insurance scams and steaming through shops by the gypsies.

I think you have embarrassed yourself enough in this thread..

I can see in future motherhubbard will be at the top of the moral high ground whilst begging on the street corner from the wealthy migrants. Take a look around you silly woman, there are probably OAPs and children in the very street where you live for whom you have less compassion apparently than for the hordes invading Europe's borders to whom we have no responsibility whatsoever other than in your misguided head. As I've said before mother put your money where your mouth is and take a couple in a tent in your back garden. Just as a matter of interest exactly how much have you contributed to the great welfare kick - talk is most definitely cheap in your case.

Perhaps Mother will feel hungry after all his flaming and pop in here for a bite to eat .......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-no ... e-34337626

Perhaps a portion of salmonella and chips.