Pre-duty lapsing, looking for agreement download

[4mph]

I know it'll have been covered, but I can't find it just now. Our office was told to do their lapsing before their own duty, and to stream the end of their own if they were going to be late. Can someone point me towards the official, agreed version on when and how lapsing is to be done? We all know it's supposed to be after your own, if there's time, but the managers are insisting they can make us do it this way round. Ta v. muchly.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

There is nothing official about doing it before or after, your dom can tell you to do it before.

HOWEVER streaming of mail is strictly forbidden, I personally would email moya about your doms instruction to do this you will find it will stop very quickly if you do

[Mortdike123]

There is nothing official about doing it before or after, your dom can tell you to do it before.

HOWEVER streaming of mail is strictly forbidden, I personally would email moya about your doms instruction to do this you will find it will stop very quickly if you do

Moya won't do anything about it. She's to busy trying to stop the company from its inevitable demise

[Mezza]

Good chance Moya or her immediate minions will hear nothing about it.

I have personally done the Moya thing about 6 times now. Every time i was emailed back and asked if they could pass the details to my area management team.

My reply each time has been NO - why report the incident to the very people that have probably created the issue in the first place. Even if they haven't and pull my DOM up for it, what's to stop him saying it was a one off on a busy day or some other excuse - the management team would never hear the truth.
I asked each time if the details could be passed higher up the chain of command - no that's not the correct procedure apparently.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

Good chance Moya or her immediate minions will hear nothing about it.

I have personally done the Moya thing about 6 times now. Every time i was emailed back and asked if they could pass the details to my area management team.

My reply each time has been NO - why report the incident to the very people that have probably created the issue in the first place. Even if they haven't and pull my DOM up for it, what's to stop him saying it was a one off on a busy day or some other excuse - the management team would never hear the truth.
I asked each time if the details could be passed higher up the chain of command - no that's not the correct procedure apparently.

If you won't let them pass it on that's why it's not getting sorted, if you do its passed to the management team to resolve the issue but moyas team check up to make sure it has been resolved, moyas team don't actually fix the problems they just make sure that the problems are actually fixed

[Mezza]

First 4 occassions i ended up agreeing to have details passed on.
The issues i raised were never resolved and still exist to this day.
Since i made my second complaint (if you want to call it that) i have had more and more and more added to my duty - just coincidence of course. I have never complained about this as if i fail to complete then so be it. I'm indoors mainly RLE, so management don't care if a part of my duty fails. In fact, they often allow my cover to go out on lapsing instead of covering my full duty.


I'm not going to get into yet ANOTHER argument with you. If you think the whole reporting to Moya works then fair enough. From personal experience i do not.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

First 4 occassions i ended up agreeing to have details passed on.
The issues i raised were never resolved and still exist to this day.
Since i made my second complaint (if you want to call it that) i have had more and more and more added to my duty - just coincidence of course. I have never complained about this as if i fail to complete then so be it. I'm indoors mainly RLE, so management don't care if a part of my duty fails. In fact, they often allow my cover to go out on lapsing instead of covering my full duty.


I'm not going to get into yet ANOTHER argument with you. If you think the whole reporting to Moya works then fair enough. From personal experience i do not.

thats because you seem to be complaining about things that mangement in fact are allowed to do but you just dont want them to and also you don't seem to want to follow correct procedures yourself to try and resolve things.

[osgoody1970]

well as I see it, if you have to leave work in your own frame in order to lapse, then surely there is no time to lapse and the figures should bear this out, so my question to your DOM, would be, why are we lapsing???

[Mezza]

thats because you seem to be complaining about things that mangement in fact are allowed to do but you just dont want them to and also you don't seem to want to follow correct procedures yourself to try and resolve things.

So i complain for example that i am forced to accept a 90 min delivery (takes about 2 hrs in total) into my daily workload which is already full and fully utilises all my paid working hours. Which means i fail part of my duty on a daily basisi - meaning redirections sit in the office for days, missorts aren't cleared in and processed, kill offs aren't trayed up and sent off and all traceable return items are left un processed.
In the meantime staff are finishing their deliveries and plus about 20 mins lapsing and going home at anything from 12:30 onwards. Managers are then getting in the vans that have returned and going out to deliver.
I thought there was an agreement in place that states the 'utilising of all paid working hours'.
But i can't put in a complaint that should have some form of resolution beacause at the end of the day management are allowed to send me out on delivery?
My grievance failed at level 3. My Union rep couldn't care less.

But hey it's all ok because management are allowed to do this?

Surely even if they can do it, it doesn't make it right.

Add to it a manager taking a van home everyday - a round trip of about 40 miles a day - about 30 miles more than any other vehicle in the office does.
A DOM telling me to scan all Tracked items on the first delivery failure report as delivered.
A manager telling staff to scan 9am specials as inaccessible and deliver them later or to put them on a card without a time.
Changing my 1 in 4 rotate to a 1 in 6 because it din't fit with the rest of the office - despite more weekends apparently being made available under agreement.

I could go on all day here, but as long as it's ok for management to do these things eh/
The easy answer is why worry - turn up on time, do whatever they tell you to do and go home at your finishing time.
I'm sure i've read somewhere that if more and more is added to your workload to the point it becomes physically impossible to complete it can be a case under B&H. Perhaps that should be my next route.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

So i complain for example that i am forced to accept a 90 min delivery (takes about 2 hrs in total) into my daily workload which is already full and fully utilises all my paid working hours. Which means i fail part of my duty on a daily basisi - meaning redirections sit in the office for days, missorts aren't cleared in and processed, kill offs aren't trayed up and sent off and all traceable return items are left un processed.
In the meantime staff are finishing their deliveries and plus about 20 mins lapsing and going home at anything from 12:30 onwards. Managers are then getting in the vans that have returned and going out to deliver.

Again yes all this is piss poor management but no rules are actually being broken unless you know that he is not reporting this, if he is reporting all this then it is perfectly allowable for him to do

I thought there was an agreement in place that states the 'utilising of all paid working hours'.

Theres an aspiration for this in an agreement but there is no rule it must happen

But i can't put in a complaint that should have some form of resolution because at the end of the day management are allowed to send me out on delivery?
My grievance failed at level 3. My Union rep couldn't care less.

But hey it's all ok because management are allowed to do this?

Surely even if they can do it, it doesn't make it right.

Level 3 isnt the end of the line you can still take the grievance further if you feel that you have a case

Add to it a manager taking a van home everyday - a round trip of about 40 miles a day - about 30 miles more than any other vehicle in the office does.

What exactly does this have to do with you? the dom doing this does not affect you in any way, do you know for a fact that he does not have permission to do this? We had a temporary dom a few years back and he was allowed to do this, it was part of his agreement to take on the office for a period

A DOM telling me to scan all Tracked items on the first delivery failure report as delivered.
A manager telling staff to scan 9am specials as inaccessible and deliver them later or to put them on a card without a time.

These are the only 2 things that would be worth emailing moya about, rules are being broken by your manager and you and other staff who are doing this, you should refuse to do this and if he insists email moya about this, these are the things that do get stopped very quickly when you email moya

Changing my 1 in 4 rotate to a 1 in 6 because it din't fit with the rest of the office - despite more weekends apparently being made available under agreement.

the agreement gave the option of your office to select the attendance pattern at the revision, if your dom has now changed that, what did your rep say when you asked him in writing to put in a disagreement about it at the time the dom proposed to make the change?

I could go on all day here, but as long as it's ok for management to do these things eh/
The easy answer is why worry - turn up on time, do whatever they tell you to do and go home at your finishing time.

No its not just that simple

I'm sure i've read somewhere that if more and more is added to your workload to the point it becomes physically impossible to complete it can be a case under B&H. Perhaps that should be my next route.

Your next route? it was the correct route to go down as soon as it started happening, again this is my point you dont follow the correct procedures yourself and complain that you think your dom isnt either, you say that emailing moya is of no use well thats because you it appears that you are complaining about things that dont appear to be breaking any rules, if no rules are being broken what do you expect to happen?

Remember you are the one who is saying theres no point emailing moya, there is if you do it properly

[Mezza]

I emailed Moya about the scanning of Tracked items - it went on for months. I refused to do it after a few days when i realised the implications when i served a customer who had come to ask where his Tracked item was as it showed as delivered on track and trace (yep i had done it and remembered it). DOM continued to do it himself for months after my email.

I emailed about the incorrect handling of specials over a year ago and low and behold have seen staff being told to do this time after time ever since. Getting a EPOD card back from delivery staff without any times on it is almost a daily occurence.

And even with all that i have had an argument with my DOM over 9am specials last week when he said he didn't have the staff to take them out so to just let them go as normal specials and he was happy to swallow the fine !

The 1 in 4 rotate i mentioned was just for 3 indoor staff and had been in place for over 10 years. It was a supposed sweetener for working our full hours and stemmed from the job and knock days. All staff were aware we had this and nobody ever complained as nobody wanted to work the full hours we have to.
Our DOM told us it was for budget reasons and also to be fair to the rest of the office and changed the rotate without any notice. We put in grievances all the way to level 3 where we were informed that an amendment to the office agreement on attendance schedules said our Union Rep and DOM had agreed to the change and signed it off. We contacted Area and were told they had asked for a copy of the amendment, but they never got it and despite trying to chase it up never got anywhere with it.

As far as utilising all paid working hours is concerned - i thought it was mentioned in our current agreement and also in the Resourcing to workload thing that went round a while back.

Reporting the work that isn't completed also gets nowhere. We know it is not being correctly reported on the DODR and so have even emailed our DSM on a daily basis. Especially when the surcharges and customs charges were building up. We had almost 6 weeks worth, completely untouched at it's worst, over Mothers day (loads of cards). Customers complaining about missed hospital appointments. We emailed Moya and again nothing was ever done.

I cannot disagree with you on the point that we may not have followed the correct procedure for handling these issues. But when we have a rep that couldn't care less about things and an Area rep that tries as best he can not to get involved with local issues, then how are we to know what the correct procedures are? I have regularly posted on here asking for advice and appreciate every scrap i get. But then months later you tell me it was the incorrect information. Just how are we supposed to know how to correctly deal with issues?

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

I emailed Moya about the scanning of Tracked items - it went on for months. I refused to do it after a few days when i realised the implications when i served a customer who had come to ask where his Tracked item was as it showed as delivered on track and trace (yep i had done it and remembered it). DOM continued to do it himself for months after my email.

I emailed about the incorrect handling of specials over a year ago and low and behold have seen staff being told to do this time after time ever since. Getting a EPOD card back from delivery staff without any times on it is almost a daily occurence.

And even with all that i have had an argument with my DOM over 9am specials last week when he said he didn't have the staff to take them out so to just let them go as normal specials and he was happy to swallow the fine !

The 1 in 4 rotate i mentioned was just for 3 indoor staff and had been in place for over 10 years. It was a supposed sweetener for working our full hours and stemmed from the job and knock days. All staff were aware we had this and nobody ever complained as nobody wanted to work the full hours we have to.
Our DOM told us it was for budget reasons and also to be fair to the rest of the office and changed the rotate without any notice. We put in grievances all the way to level 3 where we were informed that an amendment to the office agreement on attendance schedules said our Union Rep and DOM had agreed to the change and signed it off. We contacted Area and were told they had asked for a copy of the amendment, but they never got it and despite trying to chase it up never got anywhere with it.

As far as utilising all paid working hours is concerned - i thought it was mentioned in our current agreement and also in the Resourcing to workload thing that went round a while back.

Reporting the work that isn't completed also gets nowhere. We know it is not being correctly reported on the DODR and so have even emailed our DSM on a daily basis. Especially when the surcharges and customs charges were building up. We had almost 6 weeks worth, completely untouched at it's worst, over Mothers day (loads of cards). Customers complaining about missed hospital appointments. We emailed Moya and again nothing was ever done.

I cannot disagree with you on the point that we may not have followed the correct procedure for handling these issues. But when we have a rep that couldn't care less about things and an Area rep that tries as best he can not to get involved with local issues, then how are we to know what the correct procedures are? I have regularly posted on here asking for advice and appreciate every scrap i get. But then months later you tell me it was the incorrect information. Just how are we supposed to know how to correctly deal with issues?

Are you saying I advised one thing then advised something different?

[Mezza]

Not at all - if anything you have been more than helpful. However, when you get advice that seems to make sense and follow it only to find you got nowhere and then having said you got nowhere, someone else comes on and tells you that you haven't followed the correct procedure it becomes not only frustrating but also demoralising.

I am merely saying how on earth are we supposed to find the correct information when it's needed?