election 2015

[dvbuk55]

The USA has land borders and we don't unless you count Wales and Scotland

[borders]

Do you honestly believe leaving the EU would negate the need for food banks in this country?
is the problem not one of wealth redistribution?
Do you honestly believe Cameron and Osborne and Farage are the ones to trust with wealth redistribution?

Sorry - IF I’M GETTING LIVELY IT’S BECAUSE I FEEL BLOODY LIVELY!”

Well simple arithmetic here mother between 2001 and 2011 these immigrants have contributed more than 20 billion over the 10 year period whereas the UK has contributed £200 Billion over that same period. Wealth distribution is a good idea, stop giving it to the EU and give it to worthwhile causes in this country. I lived in this country before the EU and I hope to die in a UK that is no longer part of that disgraceful organisation.

"Wealth distribution is a good idea" - well there is 6 words we can agree with.
where do you get your figures from ? just reading that page motherhubbard put up , 4 parts stand out to me.

1. the net benefit of EU membership to the Uk could be in the region of £62-78bn a year , times that by the next 10 years and that trumps your 200 million figure.
2.UK companies could not operate without getting the components and parts they need from European suppliers. they also export these intermediate goods to European Companies.
3.The EU is a springboard for trade with the rest of the world through its global clout. through 30 trade deals , British companies have full access to a $24 trillion market and a recent deal with Canada and on - going discussions with Japan and the USA could double this to $47 trillion.
4. the UK would struggle to achieve the same quality of trade deals independently.

I have read some disturbing reports on this new Trade deal with the USA with regards to penalty clauses and maybe this is why the tories are tightening up the Anti- Trade Union Laws further .
The Capitalist Elite do not always see eye to eye and that is the case with Europe. there is some , along with this support from the CBI , who think they do rather well in Europe and others who long for the the good old days and think we could do better outside of Europe .
now I agree with Motherhubbard and will quote her " Do you honestly believe Cameron and Osborne and Farage are the ones to trust with wealth redistribution? " once you get your head around the good or bad effects of immigration , the point being if we only had one person migrate to this country do you really see an up turn of mass wealth distribution !!??

[borders]

I look around my works office and all the older guys live in lovely houses where back before we was over crowded and had a poor benefit system which gives houses away and pushes the prices up for genuine buyers these guys could comfortably afford a house on a postmans wage. These days in London and Kent you have no chance. This country gives too much charity, England always have to be the do-gooders and the average working bloke like us can't afford to buy a house.

this is another big concern for ordinary people , I have a stepson who is 31 and has only ever paid rent and I might add that he does not live in London. Charity you mention --- Private Landlords ... since 2008, we have seen a tremendous shift to private landlords. Huge profits; £245 billion in the last five years net gains for private landlords in Britain. Much of this don't forget is Taxpayers money. ponder on this :-

"Mrs Thatcher's Government changed the labour movement traditional policy of spending money on bricks to spending the money on rents. Since then, £411 billion of public funds has been spent on rents. It would be far cheaper to build social houses for rent and stop at least £9 billion a year this money lining the pockets of the already wealthy. We have no idea if they are paying taxes on this income."

[dvbuk55]

now I agree with Motherhubbard and will quote him " Do you honestly believe Cameron and Osborne and Farage are the ones to trust with wealth redistribution? " once you get your head around the good or bad effects of immigration , the point being if we only had one person migrate to this country do you really see an up turn of mass wealth distribution !!??

Very observant post borders, except motherhubbard is female What you fail to understand is the figures you quoted would not be any less if we weren't part of Europe, trade would still go on regardless.

[borders]

apologises to Motherhubbard . well spotted , why the need for ? you have too much time on your hand now you have retired !
address point 4 then ?

[dvbuk55]

apologises to Motherhubbard . well spotted , why the need for ? you have too much time on your hand now you have retired !
address point 4 then ?

All the time in the world, at last my dues are paid after more than 50 years in the workplace. We didn't join the EEC until 1973 and I was 27 and did perfectly well before that. Charles De Gaulle vetoed UK joining, the ungrateful barsteward after all we did for him and the French. Many have no knowledge of life before the EU and what Britain can do. Immigration with open borders is costing the growth forecasts to be lower than predicted. We could opine all day but until we pull out and make new markets and close the borders we are prisoners of the EU Parliament without any veto on the crap they come out with.

[borders]

ok , we close the borders , let no more in , then answer my other question . redistribution of wealth from the Tories/UKIP to the ordinary people ? likely to happen ? do you think we live in a classless society ? cast aside for one moment the fact that you tell you have " done perfectly well" , so there has never been any antagonistic contradictions between Capital and labour since the 1970's ?
Perception V Reality ..... click on this link https://twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/5 ... 72/photo/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tman]

There's a very good chance that the average bloke in the street does perceive the various "problems" (as listed in the tweet) to be worse stats-wise than they really are, but that doesn't mean those "problems" don't exist or aren't valid concerns.
Apart from that, posting a link to what some Joe says on Twitter is hardly a form of proof for or against the argument; after all WTF is he and where did his stats come from?

[fishtank]

The USA has land borders and we don't unless you count Wales and Scotland

I think what's happening right now in the Mediterranean proves that water is no barrier to the desperate dv. Close the borders and you'll eventually see these boats in the channel.
We cannot turn back the clock, the genie is out of the bottle and the more inequality in the world the more people will migrate to where the haves have it all.

The bottom line is no matter how much immigration there is your standard of living will not change because that standard is dictated by how much wealth trickles down from above and that is entirely in the hands of the wealthy.

[dvbuk55]

The USA has land borders and we don't unless you count Wales and Scotland

I think what's happening right now in the Mediterranean proves that water is no barrier to the desperate dv. Close the borders and you'll eventually see these boats in the channel.
We cannot turn back the clock, the genie is out of the bottle and the more inequality in the world the more people will migrate to where the haves have it all.

The bottom line is no matter how much immigration there is your standard of living will not change because that standard is dictated by how much wealth trickles down from above and that is entirely in the hands of the wealthy.

Well one of the problems is the assistance they are being given without knowing who they are or what their intentions are so I would definitely NOT allow them to enter the UK. I think we have enough problems already with the enemy within without adding to it. With immigration running riot the wealth that does trickle down is going to be spread even thinner.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I am selfish while the Tories are in power (or any Right Wing party as I perceive them) I will vote to stay in the EU for 2 reasons.

1. It will piss them off.
2. If we lose the rights we have gained from being in the EU, I can't see any Right Wing (or even right of centre) party either let us keep them, or introduce more.

What rights have we gained: http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=82" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Every EU worker has certain minimum rights relating to:
health and safety at work: general rights and obligations, workplaces, work equipment, specific risks and vulnerable workers
equal opportunities for women and men: equal treatment at work, pregnancy, maternity leave, parental leave
protection against discrimination based on sex, race, religion, age, disability and sexual orientation
labour law: part-time work, fixed-term contracts, working hours, employment of young people, informing and consulting employees
Individual EU countries must make sure that their national laws protect these rights laid down by EU employment laws (Directives).

Don't think its a threat worth worrying about then please research the The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, which will effectively give multinationals powers over national governments and parliaments. The government are not far off signing the TTIP and if they do then we could follow countries like Venezuela who are being sued by a multinational because of a similar agreement and some laws that they passed (to nationalise 11 oil rigs). The court that heard the case ordered venezuela to pay £1.6 billion in compensation.http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/opini ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[motherhubbard]

What you fail to understand is the figures you quoted would not be any less if we weren't part of Europe, trade would still go on regardless.

Not according to he CBI - if you read the post they say that not only will the UK not have access to the markets on such favourable terms but they won't have access to the raw materials either.
Then of course you will need to find the funding for the universities who rely heavily on foreign students.

We didn't join the EEC until 1973 and I was 27 and did perfectly well before that
Yes - do you remember the rationing that lasted until 1954?

[cyrus]

There's a very good chance that the average bloke in the street does perceive the various "problems" (as listed in the tweet) to be worse stats-wise than they really are, but that doesn't mean those "problems" don't exist or aren't valid concerns.
Apart from that, posting a link to what some Joe says on Twitter is hardly a form of proof for or against the argument; after all WTF is he and where did his stats come from?

Don't know who he is but his sources are YouGov and Ipsos Mori.

[dvbuk55]

What you fail to understand is the figures you quoted would not be any less if we weren't part of Europe, trade would still go on regardless.

Not according to he CBI - if you read the post they say that not only will the UK not have access to the markets on such favourable terms but they won't have access to the raw materials either.
Then of course you will need to find the funding for the universities who rely heavily on foreign students.

We didn't join the EEC until 1973 and I was 27 and did perfectly well before that
Yes - do you remember the rationing that lasted until 1954?

Yes I remember rationing, life was quite tolerable even with the shortages. It took a number of years to recover after the war and how many times since then have we been to war? I remember Suez, Korea, the Malaya uprising, Borneo. I remember the wireless being the family entertainment and TV when I was 11 or 12 going to a neighbours to watch it on Saturday night.
As for foreign students and universities, what will stop foreign students applying for and attending university in the UK? Hopefully someone somewhere will wake up to the fact that half the subjects for degrees such as media studies, textiles etc are a waste of time and money and they'd be better off learning to lay bricks or plaster walls.

"The UK and the EU are almost wholly dependent on imports of raw materials. Availability is compounded by their low substitutability and recycling rates, commonly less than 1 per cent. Shortages of critical raw materials may affect UK & EU businesses and adversely influence economic growth and prosperity."

You see belonging to the EU doesn't guarantee access to raw materials it's a question of recognising where the market is.

[jetblack]

I am selfish while the Tories are in power (or any Right Wing party as I perceive them) I will vote to stay in the EU for 2 reasons.

1. It will piss them off.
2. If we lose the rights we have gained from being in the EU, I can't see any Right Wing (or even right of centre) party either let us keep them, or introduce more.

What rights have we gained: http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=82" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Every EU worker has certain minimum rights relating to:
health and safety at work: general rights and obligations, workplaces, work equipment, specific risks and vulnerable workers
equal opportunities for women and men: equal treatment at work, pregnancy, maternity leave, parental leave
protection against discrimination based on sex, race, religion, age, disability and sexual orientation
labour law: part-time work, fixed-term contracts, working hours, employment of young people, informing and consulting employees
Individual EU countries must make sure that their national laws protect these rights laid down by EU employment laws (Directives).

Don't think its a threat worth worrying about then please research the The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, which will effectively give multinationals powers over national governments and parliaments. The government are not far off signing the TTIP and if they do then we could follow countries like Venezuela who are being sued by a multinational because of a similar agreement and some laws that they passed (to nationalise 11 oil rigs). The court that heard the case ordered venezuela to pay £1.6 billion in compensation.http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/opini ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LOL - good luck to Exxon with the £1.6 billion compensation bid against Maduro/Venezeula. The US are currently building up Maduro as a baby eating anti christ because he has the audacity to not let the yanks get stuck into his cheap oil. Nutcase that he is, he'd rather let the oil wealth be of benefit to the people of Venezeula Some people hey ?

Completely agree re. the workers rights via Europe BTW.

I'm ambivalent over the EU issue. Seems to me we either go with Europe or the US. If thats the choice, its the EU every day of the week for me.

But then another part of me thinks its all completely irrelevant anyway - we are effectively being run by the multinationals now - RBS has a balance sheet as big as the whole of the UK economy.

The UK goes to the highest bidder - thats the free and deregulated market for you, much lauded by thatcher et al.
And who is the highest bidder ? Currently the US and China.

Whilst we are on the subject, does anyone know who actually owns Royal Mail these days ie. who is our real employer ? I've tried to work it out myself but the ownership and control of UK listed companies is virtually impossible to ascertain.