FORECASTING OVERTIME

[BarnsleyLackey]

This just became the most interesting thread.

[Spedley]

No, unlawful deduction of wages does not apply to overtime or any non-regular benefits. Plus, I also think it has recently changed and changed name too!

[enskied]

Believe it or not Employers do not have to pay their employees for overtime

Correct. In England and Wales an employer does not have to pay overtime. This is stated in employment contracts, salaried workers almost never get any.

However we have a contract with RM that clearly states that we do get paid OT and sets out the full pay rates of OT.

[postslippete]

Yes salaried workers will often work past their hours and not get paid for the overtime - because they get an annual salary


However, I recently rung ACAS on the phone, and he explained that in our job a lot of us are probably doing what's called "Voluntary Overtime"

That means, we are free to turn down overtime and Royal Mail in turn do not have a contractual obligation to force us to work past our time either. The problem is though, that if you do end up working past your time, on this basis, I was informed that they do not always have to pay you.

And the way, a lot of DOMs explain this - is not what is stated in our employment contracts regarding overtime rates - but by their Policy on the Pay and Flexibility Agreement. We all know that they should be taking work off us when it is busy but they should also be giving us extra work to do so that we don't leave home before our finish time as well. In many offices in the UK, its just not being managed very well at this present time. But in future, you could end up working 6 hours of overtime on a day off and have some of those hours taken off you as well - as per flexibility. You heard it here first.

I know some part-timers are desperate for cash in our office but the way the job is going, ask yourself: is it worth doing overtime anymore?? Royal Mail have changed the overtime rates and it won't be long before you end up getting short-changed week on week, just so the managers make their budgets

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

Yes salaried workers will often work past their hours and not get paid for the overtime - because they get an annual salary


However, I recently rung ACAS on the phone, and he explained that in our job a lot of us are probably doing what's called "Voluntary Overtime"

That means, we are free to turn down overtime and Royal Mail in turn do not have a contractual obligation to force us to work past our time either. The problem is though, that if you do end up working past your time, on this basis, I was informed that they do not always have to pay you.

And the way, a lot of DOMs explain this - is not what is stated in our employment contracts regarding overtime rates - but by their Policy on the Pay and Flexibility Agreement. We all know that they should be taking work off us when it is busy but they should also be giving us extra work to do so that we don't leave home before our finish time as well. In many offices in the UK, its just not being managed very well at this present time. But in future, you could end up working 6 hours of overtime on a day off and have some of those hours taken off you as well - as per flexibility. You heard it here first.

I know some part-timers are desperate for cash in our office but the way the job is going, ask yourself: is it worth doing overtime anymore?? Royal Mail have changed the overtime rates and it won't be long before you end up getting short-changed week on week, just so the managers make their budgets

When your dom agrees to pay the overtime it is the not considered "voluntary" overtime and if he then does not pay it. That is unlawful deduction of wages. your confusion is what is considered voluntary overtime, in the recent court ruling that was unagreed overtime where by the employer did not give prior approval to work during a lunch break. and then refused to pay. that is a completely different scenario to the over running deliveries procedure within RM and if you use that procedure RM cannot legally not pay you those hours.

As for the flexibility agreement that will not result in hours being deducted from overtime, firstly for the reason above and also as the flexibility agreement specifically states it's a voluntary 30 minute flex which the time must be given back during the same week. Again emphasis on voluntary if the employee doesn't want to flex then that's completely the employees decision. taking hours off of the overtime is not part of that agreement that's called banking hours and as yet there is no agreement or provision in law to be able to do that. A completely new agreement would need to be made and agreed with the union to allow that to happen

[postslippete]

Thanks zx


Im no expert on employment law but unlawful deductions in wages.....sounds like fraud to me....would you agree?


And I do believe there are a few rogue DOMs (a bit like ours) who agree to pay overtime just to get mail out the door and then don't pay up. I partly think that this is because everything about the overrunning procedure is done verbally and relies on trust. And so it can be a grey area, just like the flexibility agreement, which I will get back to in just a moment.

Officially, we can only claim delivery excess, if we inform the manager before we leave the office to do our duty that there is a strong possibility that we may end up working past our time and they (the manager) agrees to pay us if we go over. If we don't inform the manager before we leave the office and then end up working past our time; then the chances are, we will not be paid any overtime. Can you possibly see how this arrangement can be twisted to suit? The line manager or even DOM could have said yes, its ok, book the overtime for today, and then turn round a week later, and deny all knowledge! It doesn't exactly foster good relationships between staff and managers, but they don't care, when the budget is everything.

Or as you mention, they (the manager) may use the flexibility agreement, and twist it to say "well, we have taken off 30 minutes for flexing because you finished earlier on that day in the week". Is that exactly an unlawful thing to do, if they didn't mention it when you initially agreed to work past your time because you thought that you was getting paid for it? Which poses the question. If you finish early are you (the postman) supposed to go to a manager and ask them what work needs doing, or is your boss supposed to come to you and find you work that takes you up to your scheduled finish time?

It might sound like I was being controversial about mentioning that they do not always have to pay you overtime; its just the fact that they can, and often do. I know it won't stop some posties from working overtime though because money is just too hard to come by these days. Its just that our members need to know exactly what to do when this happens and to prevent it from happening again so that they don't get ripped off.

For me, I prefer to work overtime when it suits me, not when it suits them!!!