Resign and Seniority

[chrisj]

I am not calling you a pendant in a derogatory way - and it was not about you personally.

In addition, I have not changed my assertion about driving the van on the same day by different posties... In fact, I stressed that it is something I believe should happen if necessary - like we have stupid laspe where 2 people usually reserves find themselves on a lapse that does not have a natural loop or they do not know the loops...

In such a situation above, to avoid deadwalking: one postie gets out at the start and the other parks at the end and start walking towards the first postie, first postie picks up the van and the other postie and they are on their way. After that, the original driver can then start driving again (depending on loops) and then other swaps.

We are a semi-rural offices with a few rounds with deadwalks... If a driver insist on driving all the time, he will find himself being used a taxi and he might also have to do some deadwalks (and back to the van) because we do not have loops for drivers and passengers.

Like I said, 'endorse' the logbook, if you like!

[TrueBlueTerrier]

True blue terrier ,they should both be drivers (not the passenger )park and loop move van two keys two driver


Didn't take that long to work out !!!!!

In our office the few P&L we have its a designated driver and a designated passenger. There are also passenger and driver loops to accommodate oversize packets and off route Prios etc.

I am sorry but people can't just assume that their office is run the same as every other office. They aren't.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Since P&L, can you point me in the direction of the document that says only one person can drive the van?

CDV Guidelines http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... 09#p266582" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Principles of Shared Van working

Typically one of the shared van pair is nominated as the driver each day to minimize inefficiency as a result of driver changes during the duty

Driver Responsibility
While using shared vans, drivers must follow instructions (contained in the Overnight Retention of Vehicles policy, located on the 6 phase intranet site) by completing the logbook as described. Under Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 Royal Mail has a legal obligation to provide, when required, details on the identity of any driver using a vehicle at a particular time. In order to fulfil this obligation, the Vehicle Condition & Mileage Logbook (the logbook) will be used as the primary day-to-day control record.

For the purposes of the Road Traffic Act 1988, the driver whose name is last recorded in the logbook will be considered responsible for the roadworthiness and security of the vehicle until responsibility is transferred to the next driver by signature in the logbook. Only the driver whose name is recorded in the logbook may drive the vehicle until responsibility is transferred. Subsequent drivers must carry out at least a “duty” level (roadworthiness) vehicle check before driving and the vehicle logbook must be completed in line with the example used in the Overnight Retention of Vehicles Policy, located in the 6 phase intranet site).

BTW, you have also given a way to get 2 posties driving the same van during the same shift... You get some pendants coming up with that statement time and time again but it is not how it actually works or meant to work.

See above, it is indeed how its meant to work, unless yours in atypical duty and in that case the DOM should have a plan in place to allow driver handover - if not he is breaking the law, as is RM, and the driver if they haven't declared.

Why do you need to keep doing a van check?

Because its part of your obligations as a driver under your contract of employment. Its also has H&S implications in the event of an accident.

Most drivers do not even do the full van check to start with. You have been in the same van so you know what is going on? So what if you have to endorse the logbook?

There are a lot of things "most" people don't do, and if you are one, you can't complain if it bites you on the arse at some point.

So your driver has an emergency then what? You have 2 keys and can both drive, so share the driving instead on one person having to do the driving all the time. You do not have to share driving on the same day but can alternate...

Alternating days is allowed, even swapping on the day as long as procedures are followed. In an emergency, depending on the nature, you call base and they send out another, you do van checks and sign the log book, or in the worst case, you drive them to the hospital ignoring the log book, this is aloud in law in situations of extremis.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

You get some pendants coming up with that statement time and time again

Pendants, is an item of jewellery, but if you mean pedants I agree thats not name calling or abuse. In fact with the amount of linking to agreements and endorsing doing the job correctly, I am a Pedant.



Full Definition of PEDANT

1 obsolete : a male schoolteacher
2 a : one who makes a show of knowledge
b : one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge
c : a formalist or precisionist in teaching

[motherhubbard]

this is aloud in law in situations of extremis.

Why would you need to shout? (Tee hee hee)

[Craig_Fairbrass]

Postie of 25 years in my office recently got caught driving the van between a loop, he'd previously refused to do the assessment. Got seen by a manager doing this and is no longer employed.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

this is aloud in law in situations of extremis.

Why would you need to shout? (Tee hee hee)

[chrisj]

Thanks for the correction of the word 'pedant' and thanks for calling yourself a pedant because you saved me that task - joking (not!) he he he...

We can all be pedantic from time to time; some in my office will call me a pedant... However, this is one job where you cannot or you will struggle to always do things by the book.

Van check! What van check? Is it just a cursory look or the full required van check we are talking about; either way, the job is done so flexibly and under so much pressure that we all do what we normally do when we drive our own cars...

And like I said, if you are already in a van with someone else and you also have a spare key that allows you access to the van, what sort of van check/s are you going to be doing when you just have to drive for a few minutes with the same driver in the van with you???

There were 2 parts to my reply: there was the issue of interchanging driver within the same duty and the other more important is the idea that there is a passenger and driver role in a park and loop/shared van pairing...

We have been doing P&L for almost 4 years and we do not tend to get problems with who the legal driver is and also there are just the odd one or two (usually ex-driver or very senior posties) that thinks that it is some sort of status and power to be the driver rather than the passenger... Again, just a handful have changed the set-up from planners so that one person drives more and the other do more walking to take care of parcels or difficult loops... But even the old guards have changed their thinking and are now more flexible because the whole office has to be flexible for P&L to work best.

I should also add that we have a Parking problem: vans are kept in a multi-storey that can require up to 10 minutes to et depending on traffic (rush hour/school run), and the said car park is not opened until 7am. So in most situations, the part timers get the van because they arrive after 7.30am onwards and some even 9am. Full timers that have cars can usually park on side roads and leave their cars there but they soon fill and become unavailable for part timers.

So a full time driver that insists on getting the van and doing all the driving will have to do his task (IPS/Double prep and his own prep and bag up), then has to go and get the van afterwards and return at end. At the same time, the part timer might have to park about 8-10 minutes from the office and walk the same distance at the end of shift instead of just going straight to get the van and returning the van afterwards...

At the end of the day, one can be pedantic about everything with doing our job or sometimes you have to go with the flow and/or do what works best for everyone. The same thing could apply to using a LWT but you just have to play it by ear and not to be too difficult or considered unreasonable; even if you are right.

TrueBlue - thanks for info but you are not P&L, not yet! Maybe never - lucky you!!!

[chrisj]

I forgot to add:

Principles of Shared Van working

Typically one of the shared van pair is nominated as the driver each day to minimize inefficiency as a result of driver changes during the duty

The reverse is actually true in some of the examples that I have given; where it is actually more efficient and less time consuming... what inefficiencies do they have in mind? A rather vague statement, and the word typically also implied it can be done in a different way.

Also who is doing the nominating and how often? Or are my getting pedantic?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Its the legality of it. The Police have to know who was in charge of the vehicle (ie driving) in the event of an incident. RM are legally responsible for recording who is in charge of the vehicle and the method they use is the Log Book. Part of the contract of employment is that before driving a vehicle you should do checks on it to ensure its roadworthiness (after all the driver is responsible for the roadworthiness of the vehicle in law).

Now if you don't do checks and you don't do driver handovers in the log book, thats fine with me. No skin off my nose.

However, I hope that the pairings are fully aware of the implications of not doing the above should an untoward and unplanned incident happen.

Speeding in a 30mph zone - 2 weeks later who can remember who was driving when the ticket comes. RM will send it to the name in the log book, will they take the points or grass on their partner. If they refuse to state who was the driver, or can't remember, will RM be happy.

An accident happens because of mechanical fault and the police deem the driver responsible, but the driver at the time of the accident didn't do the checks because he didn't it sign it out. Can't see the police accepting that as a defence, or RM if the police take action against a driver who didn't do the checks or sign the log book.

On a day to day basis if nothing happens then your decisions are fine and there is no comeback, but as I say, freedom of choice means you accept the responsibilities and consequences that go with your choice should anything happen.

[therailway]

Slightly off topic, but surely the log book should have been revamped to allow an entry for the actual time of the day an individual is responsible for the vehicle, ie driver a 0800-1245, driver b 1246-1530 etc.

[korky]

why, as a reserve (unless it was specified on getting the job) would you want to be a driver if you don't have to?
my partner doesn't drive, he has no licence, he gets paid the same hourly rate as me, takes no risks on a lack of concentration on getting 3pts and a fine for speeding, pushing your own personal insurance up.
the driver does the van checks to deem it safe to drive,
though our manager says this can be done by the non driver even though my partner doesn't know how to check the screen wash, never mind any oil levels, and how is he allowed to turn the key to check the brakes?
not even sure he's allowed to pop a key in to check all the lights, he won't even put it in to charge his flat pda up for fear of starting the engine up, which is left in gear!
all this for no extra payment,

i only agreed to drive a van (after 6 years) because the perk was getting a fixed duty.
as far as i'm concerned, if i don't have to drive, and it wasn't in the job description when i was first employed, then if i'm back being a reserve then it more than halves the chances of been shifted just when i'm about to bundle up, which does happen.

[chrisj]

Very few people will drive for RM if they have to follow some of the things highlighted by TrueBlue... Unless, of course, it is a singleton round.

True, have you seen the state of RM vans? Mechanical fault resulting in accidents - if we all worry about that every time we step into our own cars or RM vans, we shall become paranoid very quickly... Some RM vans are not in a fit state with bald tyres, even under pumped tyres, who checks the oil or screen wash, vehicles pulling, gears jumping out (old big vans), some do not even fill up when the dial is near zero, filthy vans, people that have smoked in the van and other wanting to do so, the list goes on.

As korky said, why should anyone have to take all that responsibility unless there is some sort of perk - and our drivers do not have perks!

If you work in a truly flexible office especially as a Reserve on a P&L, it is hard to control every aspects of what you do - constantly changing partners, walks and even vans; sometimes changing what you are supposed to do 3 times before starting. You end up in all sorts of situations, you can stop everything until every minute things is sorted out or can just get on with it - just like almost everyone else...

Can you tell who was driving 2 weeks down the line - why not? As long as it tells you where the offence took place - changing drivers is not exactly willy-nilly, but sometimes it is systematic and has been built into the duty by walkholders or the understanding is there; especially on busy days with parcels etc.

No one in my office can get away with trying to dump someone in for a traffic offence - it is not happened and it is unlikely going to happen because the person will be found out... Like I said previously, some in my office will say that I am particular but I am learning to get on with things and stop moaning and insisting because people and managers are not listening.

[NewPostieUK]

P&L was not really designed for posties to have defined roles like driver or passenger

Um.. that's EXACTLY how it was designed. If it wasn't in your office then the planners have messed up.

[fishtank]

No one in my office can get away with trying to dump someone in for a traffic offence - it is not happened and it is unlikely going to happen because the person will be found out...

It isn't about that, If you get pulled by the cops or are in an accident they'll ask to see the log book, If your name isn't in it RM will get done, If you pass a speed camera the picture and fine goes to RM and they have a duty to find out who was driving otherwise again RM gets done. If RM gets done you can be sure that they'll want a human sacrifice and that'll be you.

There is no excuse because it states clearly in the drivers handbook that you should have read that the only way to take ownership of an RM vehicle is by performing at least a duty level vehicle check and signing your name in the log book, what might go on in your office won't save your job.

Does your job mean that little to you?