Grandfather Rights how long?

[Neo_Matrix]

Hi all,

Please Help, Today I was called into the managers office and told that my driving Allowance would stop and any over payments would have to be paid back.
I'm a little worried as I have been getting the payment for nearly 5 years and have been told today that it is only protected for 3 years, I thought you only lost the allowance if you moved off delivery?

We had a revision about 5 years ago and they brought in van share, so as I was displaced and I was given grandfathers rights. I did move to another driving job for 12 months but it was a smaller Maxis Van which I think had 5 seats, which doesn't qualify for the driving money. On top this I have lost my S.A early in the year, so looking at £200 a month loss, plus the prospect of paying near £2880 back to them. So I am pretty stressed to say the least! Please Help.

Cheers

Neil

[shepherdess]

How old are you

[Neo_Matrix]

39 with 18 years service

[shepherdess]

39 with 18 years service

I was only asking because if you were over 50, your allowance would have been protected until you were 60. Sorry

[labbloke]

Ouch expensive , only over 50s protected, everyone else 3 years only, starting to do this in other offices also, need to fight for a sensible repayment plan, talk to your branch

[TrueBlueTerrier]

OVERPAYMENTS RECOVERY PROCEDURE

1. Objective

The objective of this procedure is to provide advice and guidance for processing of overpayment of wages and expenses cases.

2. Introduction

2.1 The process and procedure set out below will be followed in all cases of overpayments, recognising the legal right and commercial obligation of the Business to recover overpayments and the need to ensure it has a consistent, efficient and legal policy on the recovery of overpayments of wages.

2.2 It is Royal Mail’s policy to pay wages on time and correctly, and every effort should be made to eliminate the overpayment of pay occurring. However, it is the duty of every employee to notify the Business immediately if they become aware of an overpayment in their pay.

2.3 Royal Mail commits to dealing with overpayments in a reasonable and sensitive manner and with due regard for individual circumstances.

3. Process and Procedure

3.1 Where an overpayment is discovered the total amount of the overpayment should be calculated and the reasons for the error established and recorded.

3.2 As soon as an overpayment has been established, People and Organisational Services will notify the employee concerned. This notification will clearly detail the amount of the overpayment, the circumstances that have led to it and the options available for recovering the monies that have been overpaid. The individual should also be informed that advice can be obtained from their Union.

3.3 Where the process in Para 3.2 (detailed above) does not resolve the issue then the employee’s Line Manager will be informed of the overpayment together with the reasons that have led to it occurring, the amounts involved, and advised that they now need to meet with and discuss this issue with the employee concerned.


3.4 The Manager will arrange an interview with the employee concerned. The employee should be given prior notice of the interview and informed that should they wish, the local Union Representative may accompany them to the interview. A record of this interview should be kept by the line manager and copied to the employee.

3.5 The purpose of the interview is to establish all additional relevant facts and any mitigating/personal issues that need to be taken into account. Normally, the outcome of this meeting will be an agreement to repay the overpayment in full, over an appropriate and agreed timeframe. However, in limited circumstances, this interview may lead to agreement that some or all of the overpayment is waived and in extreme cases that the whole overpayment is waived. The MCM/DOM will be responsible for making any final decision on waiving some or all of the overpayment, after seeking advice from their RSM (Advice and Support).

In making the decision referred to above, the following should be considered:-

• whether the Employee notified the Business of the overpayment and, if so, what actions were taken by Management
• whether the overpayment continued for a substantial period of time
• the value of the overpayment in question
• the employee’s personal circumstances.

3.6 Royal Mails policy is to seek recovery of overpayments of pay by agreement, wherever possible. However, Royal Mail reserves its statutory right to deduct from salaries any monies owed. The CWU notes it is Royal Mail’s policy to reclaim overpayments of wages in these situations by deducting 10% of the individual’s gross basic pay per pay period until the overpayment is fully recovered. This will be a last resort and only applied after all reasonable efforts have been made to reach an agreement with the employee concerned. Royal Mail commits to dealing with overpayments in a reasonable and sensitive manner and with due regard for individual circumstances throughout the period of the overpayment.


4. Key Principles

4.1 In all cases of overpayments an employee’s pay record/arrangements will be amended so as to rectify the overpayment at the earliest opportunity.

4.2 In cases of bulk overpayments, i.e., where there are two or more individuals, and they have been overpaid as a result of an error emanating from the same source, these may be treated as individual cases.

4.3 In the case of overpayments of less than £25 (pro rated for part time employees), People and Organisational Services will notify the employee that the amount will be automatically deducted in the next pay (whether that be weekly or monthly).

4.4 It is agreed that all underpayments of pay will be paid in full. Where there is an overpayment and an underpayment one will be offset against the other as appropriate.

4.5 Recovery of overpayments will not take place in cases where an employee has died. In instances where the business seeks to recover the monies from an employee who has died, this will be authorised by POS, in conjunction with the RSM (Advice and Support).

4.6 In instances where an employee has left the business, Royal Mail will seek to recover any overpayment. As soon as an overpayment has been established People and Organisational Services will notify the ex-employee concerned. This notification will clearly detail the amount of the overpayment, the circumstances that have led to it, and the options available for recovering the monies that have been overpaid. Debt recovery will be used in instances where reasonable efforts have been made and failed to reach an agreement on repayment of the overpayment.

4.7 Where an employee has given advance notification of leaving the business, the business will normally recover all outstanding monies owed from the employees final pay to repay the overpayment.


4.8 In instances where a casual employee is overpaid, People and Organisational Services will notify the employee concerned. This notification will clearly detail the amount the overpayment, the circumstances that have led to it, and the options available for recovering the monies that have been overpaid.

4.9 Overpayments identified as suspected fraud or contributory negligence will be dealt with under the terms of the appropriate national procedures.

4.10 Recovery of overpayments and the arrangements associated with the process will be applied in a timely way in order to ensure that the Business recovers the monies quickly and efficiently, and to minimise any anxiety caused to the employee.

[clashcityrocker]

It is the responsibility of your manager to ensure the proper allowances are paid.
If he continued to pay you a driving allowance when you were not entitled to it, he should be reimbursing the company for his incompetence.
Unless you went out of your way to fraudulently claim something you knew you were not entitled to, you shouldn't have to pay anything back.

It is unlikely you are alone in your office, get your rep/area rep to sort this out.
We don't have to pay for their mistakes.

[Homer]

I thought that it did not matter if you were over 50, driving allowance was a maximum of 3 years only?, is there any paperwork to show exactly what the rules for grandfather rights are?.

[Neo_Matrix]

Hi everyone, Thanks for you response,

All I Have had so far was a chat with manager, to inform me that my money was being stopped and any over payments will have to be paid back. Should be getting a letter January from HR.

Have spoken to my Area rep, who says that he will deal with it then. Have also spoken to my manager again, who says if I didn't know about the 3 year rule then we shouldn't have to pay. To be fair to him, his only been there a year so its not his fault but not sure I trust him though!

Will keep you updated. Is it right if your over 50 you don't pay it back? as a women I work with is over 60 and has a PHG allowance for over 10 years and has been told she will have repay back!

Would be interested to hear if anyone else has same problem and how theirs pans out.

Cheers

[silly suffolk]

if you drove for royal mail before jan 2001 you would get grandfather rights of 6 quid a week. if you got the hightop allowance 30 quid now you and lost that type of allowance you would get maximum of 3 years mtsf. before they reclaim any money they perceive you owe you have have a meeting so take a rep in with you as there is an agreement covering overpayments. and as there have been so many overpayments nationally, there is an opinion afoot that a deal is to be made to resolve this.

[Bert66]

if you drove for royal mail before jan 2001 you would get grandfather rights of 6 quid a week. if you got the hightop allowance 30 quid now you and lost that type of allowance you would get maximum of 3 years mtsf. before they reclaim any money they perceive you owe you have have a meeting so take a rep in with you as there is an agreement covering overpayments. and as there have been so many overpayments nationally, there is an opinion afoot that a deal is to be made to resolve this.

Just curious, shouldn't H/R or Royal Mail notify you when the 3 years are to start as per MTSF agreement? If they have failed to do this, could it be perceived that the cessation of the allowance hasn't even started?

[Martin Walsh]

In 2008 the age discrimation law can in which stop anyone between 50-60 getting the full 10 year protection.

As you are in the early 30s you would not qualify for more than 3 years pay protection in any case.

The issue you need to find out and fast if you were being paid for the high top allowance were you complusory moved to the maxi van or did you volunteer via s resign ? If you were complusory moved there is an LTB out which you need to contact your area rep over.

The only reserved rights payment is the driver allowance which went under the 2000 way forward agreement. does this apply to you ?

In terms of loss of overtime / SA MTSF no longer covers these payments.

Now there was an LTB issues where the union is still in talks over those members who may have been over paid so dont at this stage agree a repayment plan !

[Bert66]

I know this is an old thread but this same repayment is rearing its ugly head in our area and several people have been paid the money for about 5 years instead of the 3 but as i said above, if they were never informed of the commencement of the 3 year lifespan as per MTSF agreement, would this be a strong enough challenge to contest the repayments?

[thegreatestfreddy]

Ouch expensive , only over 50s protected, everyone else 3 years only, starting to do this in other offices also, need to fight for a sensible repayment plan, talk to your branch

I have recently lost dawn shift allowance.... after several moves due to 'business driven change' I thought that being over 50 I was protected .... according to my boss seemingly not.... is this correct??

[TrueBlueTerrier]

According to Dingo in this thread http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... 15&t=67085" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your boss is right

In 2008 the age discrimination law came in which stops anyone between 50-60 getting the full 10 year protection.

just confirming it, I'll post any research on here.