CWU and The Green Party

[bustedflush]

As Socialism requires suppression of natural human instinct it can only prevail under authoritarian regimes, unless it can be bought in the short term with resources or 'other people's money'.

It cannot create wealth therefore cannot even begin to exist without capitalism. Unless you fancy Pol Pot's version of it, and fancy returning to an agrarian stone-age.

Without capitalism you wouldn't be able buy a mobile phone for a few hours' wages, or a flat-screen large TV for less than a weeks' or a decent runaround car for a months'.

You can always try Mugabe's new Rhodesia or N.Korea if that way of life suits you.

[borders]

Bill Gates was asked a similar question , his response was Capitalism or North Korea ? like we had no choice !! how about something in between Bill ? I agree with a lot that Tman has said unbelievably !! but cant agree with that post Bustedflush.
there is an argument to say we cant afford a lot of the things we buy anyway ! ! show me all this wealth that is being created for everyone ? the average wage in the UK is around £25000 and I don't know about you but it aint a great deal !!

Of that £1.458 trillion of personal debt, the majority is owed on mortgages. The UK had £1.250 trillion mortgage debt in March this year

We owed £208 billion on credit cards, store cards, overdrafts and personal loans. Credit card debts alone totalled £55.3 billi

[baldrick]

As Socialism requires suppression of natural human instinct

What do you mean by natural human instinct? Greed? Selfishness? If so, I don't believe that those are natural human instincts.
People are individuals and are motivated by different needs and aspirations, which are usually the result of the attitudes of the society they live in.

[jetblack]

Without capitalism you wouldn't be able buy a mobile phone for a few hours' wages, or a flat-screen large TV for less than a weeks' or a decent runaround car for a months'.

LOL - "give em an inside toilet and some people will start voting Tory"

Haven't you ever stopped to wonder how we afford these things (leaving aside the £55k average UK household debt) when we don't actually produce anything (UK been in trade deficit since 1983) ? Is it cos we alone are Gods chosen children ? Are we a nation of geniuses perhaps ?

I'll give you a clue - the US accounts for only 4.4% of the worlds total population, yet it spends 40% of the worlds total on the military/defence.

[bustedflush]

As Socialism requires suppression of natural human instinct

What do you mean by natural human instinct? Greed? Selfishness? If so, I don't believe that those are natural human instincts.
People are individuals and are motivated by different needs and aspirations, which are usually the result of the attitudes of the society they live in.

If you like, along with incentive, reward and efficiency. Aside from conflict which creates much invention, the freedom to profit from your ideas, and to sell them or their product to as many markets as possible. As you remember, the great passenger planes and vehicles and agricultural machinery which the old USSR sold by the boat load to the West because of the huge rewards to the workers who came up with ideas to improve them.

Fortunately the US spends billions with UK armament companies each year, and there are many joint projects. We are the second largest manufacturer and seller of military equipment most years too. Despite us running out armed forces into obscurity.

The fact remains that socialism inevitably does more taking than giving, and is a fallacy anyway as a result.

[jetblack]

Fortunately the US spends billions with UK armament companies each year

Yeah - I don't think you worked out the answer from the clue I gave you TBH

The fact remains that socialism inevitably does more taking than giving.

The wealth of a nation belongs rightfully to the citizens of that nation - indeed, that which isn't derived from its natural resources and land is derived from its citizens/workers.
That being the case it is in fact capitalism which inevitably does more taking than giving.

You might argue that in the impending information age that knowledge/innovation is the result of individual creativeness and endeavour - but even this is an illusion. In the future everything will be open source, democratic and protected by cryptography.

Open source everything - that is the future. Closer to socialism than anything previously possible - and undreamt of in 1844.

[bustedflush]

Fortunately the US spends billions with UK armament companies each year

Yeah - I don't think you worked out the answer from the clue I gave you TBH

The fact remains that socialism inevitably does more taking than giving.

The wealth of a nation belongs rightfully to the citizens of that nation - indeed, that which isn't derived from its natural resources and land is derived from its citizens/workers.
That being the case it is in fact capitalism which inevitably does more taking than giving.

You might argue that in the impending information age that knowledge/innovation is the result of individual creativeness and endeavour - but even this is an illusion. In the future everything will be open source, democratic and protected by cryptography.

Open source everything - that is the future. Closer to socialism than anything previously possible - and undreamt of in 1844.

Yes I chose to ignore you alluding to the suggestion that the US and similar countries protect their economic status by military force. A by-product of world peace is a solid and permanent freedom to trade, and to let the 'terms of trade' favour both the importing and exporting nations of a particular commodity or product.

As for your 'wealth of the nation' sentence, that contradicts the basic fact that capitalism (with all its faults) has been 100% of the reason for the better standard of living most of the world enjoys compared to a century ago. Socialism contributed ZERO to that, it can't, it won't and it never will. It's simply a by-product ideology. That's why your Labour Party cannot ever get re-elected on a socialist platform, as B-liar realized. Too many of the voters now have the knowledge that the concept is and always was a failure, therefore all the parties that matter have abandoned the ideology, despite making references to it for appeasing to a certain part of the electorate. The people were fooled once in the 1970's and won't be fooled again. (Sorry Mr. Daltrey.)

[borders]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... ts-own-boy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
watch this Bustedflush .
Jetblack have you seen this ?
it is a right eye opener into the so - called free world we live. I wont say anything about it just watch it.

[borders]

the" concept" as you put it Bustedflush , will never work within the framework of Capitalism. look at what has already happened in Greece...

" By signing Friday’s extension agreement, the Greek government has not only contradicted the mandate it received from the working class and the poorer layers of society on election day, but has also contradicted its own government programme that it had presented to, and which was approaved by, the Greek Parliament a few days ago. Friday’s agreement amounts to the government’s unconditional surrender to the Troika with no discernible benefit of any substance"

."This is the arrogance of German capitalists dictating policies to the Greek government, in reality a continuation of the undemocratic and humiliating imposition of brutal austerity measures on the backs of Greek working people which the troika has carried out in the last four years".

"Varoufakis has hinted that these can be done by clamping down on tax evasion and petrol smuggling. There is no doubt that Greek capitalists are evading tax. What is more doubtful, however, is whether they can be forced into paying. The Greek oligarchs have already engaged in a campaign of sabotaging the democratically elected government of Syriza through systematic flight of capital and deposit withdrawals which they will now intensify. Their money is safely stashed in foreign bank accounts abroad ".

[jetblack]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... ts-own-boy

Jetblack have you seen this ?

Yes - I saw it when it came on telly Borders. Very interesting. I must say, it seems to be in the realm of the digital/coding/technology where the battles are today being fought (for freedom and democracy).

Make no wonder David Cameron wants to do away with encryption - its costing Hollywood billions $$$

[Tman]

" By signing Friday’s extension agreement, the Greek government has not only contradicted the mandate it received from the working class and the poor etc etc.

You need to post the source here. Given the rhetoric, I'm guessing Socialist Worker or some-such?

[bustedflush]

the" concept" as you put it Bustedflush , will never work within the framework of Capitalism. look at what has already happened in Greece...

" By signing Friday’s extension agreement, the Greek government has not only contradicted the mandate it received from the working class and the poorer layers of society on election day, but has also contradicted its own government programme that it had presented to, and which was approaved by, the Greek Parliament a few days ago. Friday’s agreement amounts to the government’s unconditional surrender to the Troika with no discernible benefit of any substance"

."This is the arrogance of German capitalists dictating policies to the Greek government, in reality a continuation of the undemocratic and humiliating imposition of brutal austerity measures on the backs of Greek working people which the troika has carried out in the last four years".

"Varoufakis has hinted that these can be done by clamping down on tax evasion and petrol smuggling. There is no doubt that Greek capitalists are evading tax. What is more doubtful, however, is whether they can be forced into paying. The Greek oligarchs have already engaged in a campaign of sabotaging the democratically elected government of Syriza through systematic flight of capital and deposit withdrawals which they will now intensify. Their money is safely stashed in foreign bank accounts abroad ".

In Greece tax-dodging was a national pastime for everbody, the bottom upwards. That, along with govt. borrowing to fund a lifestyle and membership of the Euro their economic potential could and would never sustain has brought them down. The people, their leaders and businesses are all to blame. If you were rich and had funds located in a state where govt. could seize arbitrarily money from your bank account, you'd soon move it abroad wouldn't you? The people are/were doing this too which the article conveniently fails to mention.
Remember when the banking crisis hit Northern Rock? The queues of people wanting their money while panicked? It's human nature, self-preservation.

[borders]

" By signing Friday’s extension agreement, the Greek government has not only contradicted the mandate it received from the working class and the poor etc etc.

You need to post the source here. Given the rhetoric, I'm guessing Socialist Worker or some-such?

common knowledge the Greeks have just voted in a left wing Government , I thought ? this was the result of which , On Friday, February 20th Greece signed a joint statement with the Eurogroup of Finance Ministers which amounts to an abandonment of the programme on which Syriza won the election on January 25, as well as government policy statements made since then.
don't need no left wing comic to read about that , just making a point on how quickly they capitulated on their ideals .

[borders]

anyway I am done here , wasted too much time in 2008 arguing the toss. we will have to agree to disagree