Us *Whalley's made a lot of progress in 2014

[TrueBlueTerrier]

We aren't talking about RM we are talking about society as a whole.
In general women are paid less than their male counterparts. This needs to be challenged.

Are you female or cross dresser?

Name calling is not allowed.

Please remember everyone is welcome on this site. Customers, CWU Officers, Royal Mail Managers, all Royal Mail employees, the General Public, the press,and even MPs, so please do not resort to abuse if people of a different political persuasion or viewpoint to you, post on a thread.

[clashcityrocker]

Are you female or cross dresser?

That is twice you have had to resort to personal insults.
Quite clearly your arguments are so poor, you have no other refuge.

Perhaps, instead of posting nonsense on here, you should consider why you feel so threatened by women.

[fishtank]

Women working full time still earn almost £5,000 a year less than their male colleagues, and the pay gap in some jobs is three times bigger, according to a TUC analysis of official figures.

This is discrimination.
This is what should concern us as trade unionists.

It's a very complex issue though and not really as simple as the headline figure, there is for instance evidence that unmarried childless women earn more than unmarried childless men, women in technology based industries also earn slightly more than men, men tend to work in more dangerous occupations like the oil industry which obviously attracts a premium, men more readily accept unsocial hours, weekend and shift work etc, It's apparently a macho thing although it did pass me by.

Then there is the family dynamic, Is the role of primary carer something that is forced upon women by societal convention, predudice, "maternal instinct", a bullying partner or is it free choice? On paper both partners would share the role equally but in my experience that's very difficult to manage and in many cases not even what people want , certainly someone who chooses a primary carer role will not have the same career progression as someone who devotes 70 hrs a week to their career but that's not something we should legislate for, It has to be free choice of course and we should educate our children that the role of carer is not gender specific but we also have to accept that all choices have consequences. Good childcare provision does mitigate this slightly but childcare comes with both financial cost and guilt.

I think it's important to understand that just as it's wrong to force gender specific roles on people it's also important that we don't taint those roles in any way or devalue the role of primary carer and interfere with free choice.

If we remove the emotion and gender from the situation and accept the fact that taking something like 5 years out of your career will affect your earning potential and career progression what should we do if despite suddenly as a nation all becoming gender nuetral Guardian readers the majority of women continue to choose the primary carer role...make up the shortfall, keep wringing our hands, more navel gazing?

[rubberbond]

That is because it is not a recognised statutory holiday. Discrimination is discrimination positive or negative.

No it isn't.
Where you have a situation where one sector of society has been disadvantaged for whatever reason, then trying to alter that for the better is something that is to be applauded.
A simple example is girls and science. For years boys outperformed girls in science subjects at school, largely it was felt because they didn't have the confidence to speak out in mixed classes. So they started female only classes and they thrived.
There wasn't any reason why girls couldn't be as good as boys in those subjects they just needed a different environment.

Every time the issue of positive discrimination comes up we have the same bleating argument from the white middle class males of it not being fair.
Yes it is.

It's not!

Positive or not, discrimination is discrimination..............

Discrimination ,dictionary definition
action or policies based on prejudice or partiality

[chrisj]

Women earning less than men is a statistical calculation that is based on the whole: and giving that we have more male top earners that is always going to affect the figures and somewhat the conclusion.

If you take people just on the so-called average wage, of lets say £15000 - 18000 pa then the difference between men and women will significantly narrow. And within that catchment if you take it sector by sector starting from government and local government jobs and most basic jobs then there will be very little difference. Moreover, there will even negligible difference in the actual wage of men and women doing the same 'paid' (not self-employed or contractors or freelance) jobs.

Does any one knows any situation where a male OPG has earned more than an female OPG in the last 20 years or so?

[clashcityrocker]

On 21 March 2014, the Court of Session issued its judgment in Glasgow City Council v Unison and Fox Cross Claimants [2014] CSIH 27.
The Court has upheld the judgment of the Employment Appeal Tribunal that Glasgow City Council are associated employers for the purposes of equal pay law and that the female claimants working for City Parking and Cordia can compare their pay with that of men still working for the Council.
The issue at the heart of this litigation was whether the claimants, who work for City Parking (Glasgow) and Cordia (Services) LLP, should be allowed to compare their pay with male employees working for the Council. The claimants used to work for the Council. However, they were transferred to City Parking and Cordia when these arm’s length external organisations (ALEOs) were established to carry out functions which were formerly carried out by the Council directly.


WOMEN workers who for years were paid less than men doing the same jobs were yesterday toasting a £75million compensation payout.
Lawyer Carol Fox, who fought the women’s case, said: “It is the biggest ever equal pay claim settlement in Scotland.”
The money was agreed by South Lanarkshire Council, who fought a shameful nine-year legal battle against 3000 of their own female staff.
Many of the claimants are low-paid cooks, cleaners, home carers and dinner ladies who will finally now get the money they should have been paid.
Some were getting paid just half what their male co-workers were getting.
But the joy last night was tinged with sadness – as 18 of the women died while the council dragged their heels and refused to settle.

[clashcityrocker]

So while we can harp on about statistics and the detail of the headline figures, the harsh reality is - women get paid less than their male counterparts.
Unless that is people speak up and speak out.
Those 2 stories were found with a quick google search. A few years back there was another Glasgow City Council settlement which I haven't yet found. I'm sure you will be able to find more stories from your own areas.
Our grannies, aunties, wives, sisters and daughters.

Though of course if women knew their place and stayed at home, chained to the kitchen sink, they wouldn't encounter such prejudice would they?

[chrisj]

I am aware of the case against some local government... However, they were the exception to the rule: most basic jobs do not discriminate on basic pay for men and women for doing the same job or being at the same grade.

I suppose we can go as far as GPs in that statement above. However, I do understand that there might be issues of actually working out whether people of the same job designation are actually doing the same job - same output and expectations and so on.

As you can see just from reading the text of your post, the two groups are no longer actually working for the same employer. Moreover, are there no men transferred to the Council Contractor (City Parking and Cordia) who are also being paid less than those that actually work for the Council?

Headlines can sometimes be deceiving - without going into the nitty-gritty of the story/case itself. In all my working life, I have never earned more basic pay than a woman doing the same job as me. Taking time off for children and being able to do overtime is not exactly relevant: taking time off for kids is sometimes far beneficial than chasing money...

[fishtank]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that people doing the same job shouldn't receive the same pay regardless of gender but that isn't what the gender pay gap is about...as you are well aware.
The gender pay gap relates to employment progression opportunities and primarily the impact that having children or even the male employer attitudes to the "risk" of having children has on those opportunities...but as already pointed out these are complex issues that go beyond simple slogans like equal pay for women.

[clashcityrocker]

I am aware of the case against some local government... However, they were the exception to the rule: most basic jobs do not discriminate on basic pay for men and women for doing the same job or being at the same grade.
...

That is because it is illegal.
Discrimination is rarely so blatant nowadays. An employer won't say - I'm giving you the job because I don't like the paki/nignog/Tim/poof even if that is what he thinks.
He also won't say - I'm giving you the promotion just in case she has a baby.
Even if that is what he thinks.
Certain groups, women amongst them, have historically been subject to discrimination. They still are. sometimes by people who don't even know they are doing it.
There are still issues that need to be addressed.

If Springboard can improve the position of women just a tiny bit, then it is to be applauded.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I agree. We ALL complain about the management culture and style within RM, how its run on the old boys network, and who is more macho than the others. Well one way to change that is to dilute the testeronic culture, and if that includes making it easier to promote women into leaderships roles, then I am all for it. If an official "Old girls" network starts to challenge the unofficial and rampant "Old Boys" network then hopefully some good can come from it.

[rubberbond]

I agree. We ALL complain about the management culture and style within RM, how its run on the old boys network, and who is more macho than the others. Well one way to change that is to dilute the testeronic culture, and if that includes making it easier to promote women into leaderships roles, then I am all for it. If an official "Old girls" network starts to challenge the unofficial and rampant "Old Boys" network then hopefully some good can come from it.

Some of the worst managers I have worked for with/were women. Shocking behaviours that men would not get away with. Nothing to do with discrimination/sexism ,it's just fact.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I agree. We ALL complain about the management culture and style within RM, how its run on the old boys network, and who is more macho than the others. Well one way to change that is to dilute the testeronic culture, and if that includes making it easier to promote women into leaderships roles, then I am all for it. If an official "Old girls" network starts to challenge the unofficial and rampant "Old Boys" network then hopefully some good can come from it.

Some of the worst managers I have worked for with/were women. Shocking behaviours that men would not get away with. Nothing to do with discrimination/sexism ,it's just fact.

Yet some of the best managers I have worked with have been female in Royal Mail, and male outside.

The culture needs to change, this is one way of doing it. Or perhaps I am wrong and the Management style in RM is effective, fair, balanced and efficient.

[clashcityrocker]

Some good points made guys but I still think it's a little biased as Springboard has given women opportunities that didn't and don't exist for male counterparts, I'm sure if a similar scheme for guys was launched the uptake would be just as good.

What you seem to fail to understand is that those opportunities HAVE been there for you for years.
The fact you can't grasp this is probably indicative of why you haven't progressed.

[krussel]

opportunities HAVE been there for you for years.

Sorry Clash but other than "a managers buddy" there has been no personal development offered to OPG grades. I rem about years ago a computer training course with NVQ level was offered and encouraged. I applied and was told it was only available to new entrants under 20 yrs of age.

This Springboard is totally new to me.