cuddyhung wrote:the only people who moan about seniority are the younger ones who haven't put in the years to get it ,, if you have slogged your guts out for 20 -25 years and you can pick an easier round ,, fair play ,, no managers favourites cherry picking the best duties ,, its as fair a system as any other ,, just remember ,,those boys at the top were at the bottom once and they done there time in the crap jobs
We had a system on delivery once a postman hit 55 he was allowed to carry a lighter bag 21lb instead of the 32lb and as senior men they had easier rounds, it worked well for everyone. Then we got RM swapping and changing aided and abetted by junior men with not thought but themselves in the short term. Nearly all the rounds are the same now and more and more delivery staff will be cut as being unable to perform a delivery and there is less and less jobs available to accommodate inside. DDA does not mean you are looked after, its means that the employer has to take "reasonable " steps to accommodate you many people left the business from closed mail centres because there was no other work for them. Many jumped and took EVR because there was no other work for them, better that then "medical severance" as very few get medical retirement. I took this option after nearly 30 years, I have done the hard rounds, the late Saturdays till 8pm never had my own duty and I moved over to PHG and copped for crap duties again for years . I kinda figured I earned my duty on seniority and it all changed.
Do not get rid of seniority its the one thing you have that stops RM picking who does what, bosses mates/narks will have a field day and anyone who sticks up for themselves and others will get crapped on from a great height. Is it right that guy 65 who has been on the streets for near on 50 years gets a hard duty to please some one who walked into RM a year ago and does not fancy "working his way up " .
Get it together and soon because if you do not the loons will take over the asylum
I do not think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.
As previously mentioned this age & ability problem really needs to be addressed. I could see a Responsible Employer putting in a lot of time & effort to sort it. However with this company you just know nothing is going to be done. We're just going to stumble along from one catastrophe to another!
Trolley's suggestion of trying to separate Indoor Work and Outdoor work is great (in theory). But you realise this is already happening in some DOs? This is what we, The Posties, call "Special Overtime"! Given to a "Special Few." They can get their OT out of the way before they start. And if they use that time to prep their own duties they can even finish early. Good Eh?
Like all Wage Slaves, he had two crosses to bear: The people he worked for and the people he worked with! (Stephen Vizinczey.)
twincamms wrote:Did we get an answer to the original question?
Is seniority legal anymore?
Yes it is
This means that if the substantial reason for an
employment decision is not age but some other lawful factor, there is no direct discrimination.
For example, linking salary to seniority or selecting an employee for lay-off because of his or her
high salary is not direct age discrimination. Although these factors may have a greater impact on
older workers they are said to be analytically distinct from age, because a younger worker may
have worked for longer for the employer than an older but recently joined employee. So too, it has
been held that termination of employment close to the vesting age for retirement benefits in order
to save costs to the employer is not age discrimination. Nor is it age discrimination to dismiss
an employee because he or she is perceived to be over-qualified, or “has been around too long”,
unless the reason for that belief is the age of the employee.
Similar conclusions could be reached by UK tribunals applying a “but for” (causal) theory of
direct discrimination. The burden of proof will be on the claimant to prove facts from which
it may be presumed that age was the determinative cause , but it would then be open to the
respondent to show some other credible reason. The question is whether but for his or her age
the claimant would have been differently treated.
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dingo wrote:Obviously those who have served more than 20 years get 6 weeks annual leave and there is a sliding scale for those under 20 years.
Just as a matter of interest if a member of the CWU hadn't taken about 9 weeks leave over the 20 years would a member be able to claim it back as a lump sum do you think. I mean it would add up to a tidy sum by all accounts
cuddyhung wrote:the only people who moan about seniority are the younger ones who haven't put in the years to get it ,, if you have slogged your guts out for 20 -25 years and you can pick an easier round ,, fair play ,, no managers favourites cherry picking the best duties ,, its as fair a system as any other ,, just remember ,,those boys at the top were at the bottom once and they done there time in the crap jobs
I've been doing the job for a lot less time than that but am the same age as guys who have done 20+ years because I got made redundant elsewhere. So I've served my time (but not at RM) but am now junior to guys 20 or so years younger than me
From what I hear, the job wasn't as tough 10+ years ago. I'm sure someone will correct me if this is wrong, but ... apparently you regularly finished on time or well before and there were games rooms and subsidized canteens you actually had time to eat in. There weren't so many many packets and I guess D2Ds were just a twinkle in Moya's eye
I expect you'll all now tell me how much tougher it used to be. I admit I wouldn't have fancied starting at 4am or whatever it was.
twincamms wrote:Canteens, lounges, games room and gyms are redundant, mostly unused, like my Lino recently stated, 'this isn't the social club it used to be you are here to work' another favourite line of his is 'you're here to sort not talk' it's like bloody Belsen..............
Seniority would be great if as u say the guys had put in the hard yards and been shifted from pillar to post on different rounds when they started but in my office, a lot of the older guys have only done one round the whole time, never ever get moved off their duty and only given indoor prep as lapsing so never get to see another round. It was also, as said before and I'm told on a daily basis so much easier over 10 years ago, they all say if they would of started now they wouldn't be able to get to pensionable age in this job. Something does need to change as more people will be crippled or die in this job. It's not a job for life anymore really. I think we all see how easy some of the rounds are in our offices and it is demoralising in some ways that although we are all paid the same, that there is so much inequality in the amount of work done or expected. Christmas is a horrible time for that as well as people are rolling in on their easier rounds with a thousand pound of tips and bottles of wine etc coming out of all parts where as reserves are being moved from round to round without consultation or notice and get no extra. I like the job once out of the office but I do hate how different the job is for two people on the same wage in same office.
How duties were back in the day has nothing to do with anything. I've never come across anyone with such a problem with seniority. I have no problem with it at all. If I lose a duty to a longer server, I'm gutted, but not through any problem with the person or the seniority thing. Yes, some walks are better due to terrain, terraced houses etc, but if there's that much difference in duty time it really needs sorting properly. Ours are mostly oversized, meaning bulk postings have to be wilfully delayed by management to avoid pouches of mail left all over. We have people that get back early: that's more to do with running round and ignoring delivery practices. They're also the biggest cry babies when it comes to lapsing, mainly because it won't sink in - If you rush your walk and the lapsing, get done early, they'll up the lapsing.
No-one likes getting shunted all over, but it is something every postie has been through. In my view, seniority is as close to honest black and white as we'll get. NARCS and managarse lickers getting preference over a longer server doesn't sit well with me.
It is funny how you have parroted the idea that all or most senior posties have put in the shift:
No-one likes getting shunted all over, but it is something every postie has been through. In my view, seniority is as close to honest black and white as we'll get.
Like the previous poster said, not all seniors have had a tough experience or being moved from pillar to post. For starters, a lot of offices back then were overstaffed as opposed to the modern way of doing things...
We still have offices (that are overstaffed) where Reserves get their 1 in 4 or 1 in 6 weekend off and some offices where things are a lot tighter including those with more part timer staff and less Union power, you will find Reserves having to fight for any sort of weekend off and most reserves do not even know what they are doing week to week or day to day.
Seniority is definitely better than the suck ups getting better walks etc but i know that a lot of the senior men in my office never ever get moved and barely have in their 20 year careers to the point where managers don't even contemplate moving them. I don't think that's fair at all. The other day for instance I got moved off the rural duty I was covering because an older guy didn't want to do a park and loop round so I got moved to a round blind when it's my duty, I tried to argue the point but in the end made no difference. I don't believe seniority should be used in that way. We are all paid the same so shouldn't be any favouritism in that way.
chrisj wrote:It is funny how you have parroted the idea that all or most senior posties have put in the shift:
No-one likes getting shunted all over, but it is something every postie has been through. In my view, seniority is as close to honest black and white as we'll get.
Like the previous poster said, not all seniors have had a tough experience or being moved from pillar to post. For starters, a lot of offices back then were overstaffed as opposed to the modern way of doing things...
We still have offices (that are overstaffed) where Reserves get their 1 in 4 or 1 in 6 weekend off and some offices where things are a lot tighter including those with more part timer staff and less Union power, you will find Reserves having to fight for any sort of weekend off and most reserves do not even know what they are doing week to week or day to day.
It's not funny. It's how I see it and I'm not a senior. Or I am and there's many more above me.
No-one I know that started this job before me got straight on a duty. They were moved around. We all knew the rough areas and had to grit our teeth when we got put on there on a Saturday. The office wasn't overstaffed. It was how it should be - enough people to cover the walks and people on A\L and sick.
it's true that anyone joining this company in the last 3 years have joined at the worst possible time: The beginning of the end. But I remember 15 years ago, senior guys talking about how tough the job was getting. And I thought it was great.
doob wrote:Seniority is definitely better than the suck ups getting better walks etc but i know that a lot of the senior men in my office never ever get moved and barely have in their 20 year careers to the point where managers don't even contemplate moving them. I don't think that's fair at all. The other day for instance I got moved off the rural duty I was covering because an older guy didn't want to do a park and loop round so I got moved to a round blind when it's my duty, I tried to argue the point but in the end made no difference. I don't believe seniority should be used in that way. We are all paid the same so shouldn't be any favouritism in that way.
If it's your duty by pick, you should not be moved. That's not seniority abuse. It's weak management. This guy obviously knows how to push his manager.
doob wrote:Seniority is definitely better than the suck ups getting better walks etc but i know that a lot of the senior men in my office never ever get moved and barely have in their 20 year careers to the point where managers don't even contemplate moving them. I don't think that's fair at all. The other day for instance I got moved off the rural duty I was covering because an older guy didn't want to do a park and loop round so I got moved to a round blind when it's my duty, I tried to argue the point but in the end made no difference. I don't believe seniority should be used in that way. We are all paid the same so shouldn't be any favouritism in that way.
If it's your duty by pick, you should not be moved. That's not seniority abuse. It's weak management. This guy obviously knows how to push his manager.
spot on your duty is your duty ,,tell them to shove it ,, its like when boys come in on there day off ,, then expect to go on there own duty ,, when i was a reserve it was NO im on it ,, you go and do the crap duty your the one on OT
The managers in my office guarantee the duty holder if they come in on their day off then they can do their own duty, I have spoke to reps etc, it changed for a week then went straight back to normal, just turn a blind eye to it. They need the guy in so they let them choose what they want
WEAK MANAGEMENT That is the cause of most of these problems (as mentioned by my dumped on colleagues) and as long as RM can get the job done cheaply by these Amateurs they're not going to change the system.
I wouldn't mind Managers getting twice their salary IF they did their job honestly, efficiently and with no favouritism or bias. That takes a BIG Man, and as we know most Managers are just little men that go a bit crazy when you give them a little power.
I agree that anyone wanting to work their day off shouldn't automatically get put on their own duty! Again it's an Easy decision for the DOM to make (or more like not to make). I may well challenge the status quo this year. Where do you reckon the best place is to start? Perhaps the Unit Rep at the Resources Meeting?
Like all Wage Slaves, he had two crosses to bear: The people he worked for and the people he worked with! (Stephen Vizinczey.)
We had a system on delivery once a postman hit 55 he was allowed to carry a lighter bag 21lb instead of the 32lb and as senior men they had easier rounds, it worked well for everyone. Then we got RM swapping and changing aided and abetted by junior men with not thought but themselves in the short term. Nearly all the rounds are the same now and more and more delivery staff will be cut as being unable to perform a delivery and there is less and less jobs available to accommodate inside. DDA does not mean you are looked after, its means that the employer has to take "reasonable " steps to accommodate you many people left the business from closed mail centres because there was no other work for them. Many jumped and took EVR because there was no other work for them, better that then "medical severance" as very few get medical retirement. I took this option after nearly 30 years, I have done the hard rounds, the late Saturdays till 8pm never had my own duty and I moved over to PHG and copped for crap duties again for years . I kinda figured I earned my duty on seniority and it all changed. 
However with this company you just know nothing is going to be done. We're just going to stumble along from one catastrophe to another! 
I may well challenge the status quo this year. Where do you reckon the best place is to start? Perhaps the Unit Rep at the Resources Meeting? 