Is 'seniority' even legal anymore?

[Martin Walsh]

Seniority has been in use in one form or the other for decades within Royal Mail. It originally came about fought by the then different postal unions as The then Post office used to pick people for jobs based on bribes etc. Sneiority was used to ensure that managers could not discriminate against anyone regardless of background , gender or colour.

In fact as recent as 1971 pay was decided on how long you had done in the post office.

Now the only thing which is gained by seniority in Royal Mail as a benefit is the amount of annual leave. Seniority is still the fairest way to select duties when they are all the same grade of job. What is the alternative ? Whether your face fits ?

Seniority is now only really used for selection of duties in a resign and for VR. Remember when MTSF first started the first who could go was anyone age between 55 and 65 regardless of seniority. The age discrimination law changed that to just pure seniority.

In terms of age , according to figures provided by Royal Mail we have an ageing workforce with over 60% of the workforce now over 40 and with 40% of the workforce over 50.

Those who knock Seniority often fail to suggest an alternative. Remember apart from those jobs which are considered a skilled job all jobs in a delivery office are of the same grade. Therefore everyone is on the same pay rate and why shouldn't those who have been in the job the longest have the ability to select a job in front of someone who has not been in the job as long ?

[clashcityrocker]

Now the only thing which is gained by seniority in Royal Mail as a benefit is the amount of annual leave.

And in some offices ....the allocation of annual leave.

[Martin Walsh]

Clash what most on forget is that there was a joint statement agreed after the way forward by Martin Collins for the CWU and Adrain Delso for Royal Mail which stated that all staff should get their first 4 weeks choice of leave and based on that principle a lot of offices then agreed seniority as the method. This was endorsed by Royal Mail as it was covered in this joint statement but I would not say it is that widespread.

[cyclemech1]

Now the only thing which is gained by seniority in Royal Mail as a benefit is the amount of annual leave.

And in some offices ....the allocation of annual leave.

In my old office it was seniority for annual leave one year and juniority the next. The ones in the middle it didn't make much difference to!

[clashcityrocker]

Clash what most on forget is that there was a joint statement agreed after the way forward by Martin Collins for the CWU and Adrain Delso for Royal Mail which stated that all staff should get their first 4 weeks choice of leave and based on that principle a lot of offices then agreed seniority as the method. This was endorsed by Royal Mail as it was covered in this joint statement but I would not say it is that widespread.

Either some people are being wilfully obtuse or they are liars.
If everyone is assured of getting their first 4 weeks choice, then why would you use seniority? Why use anything at all?
You would simply need to give everyone a piece of paper and they would write down the 4 weeks they wanted.

In reality people are presented with a list of vacant weeks - that is the weeks that haven't been picked by people more senior than them.

[chrisj]

I do not think it is particularly unfair to call some people 'deadwood' if they truly are not able to perform at an acceptable standard.

Being in a job is not a charitable situation... As for the idea that we shall all grow old some day, fair enough, but it does not mean you have to remain in post enjoying all sorts of benefit whilst others carry you. Anyhow, seniority is not always about age!

It is more likely for a late 20s or early thirties to burn out than a late 50s on a nice cushy round or duty... People that are joined RM is the last 5 years and a bit would have found themselves right at the sharp end of a far more gruelling job...

Seniority to decide the duties on Resign - fair enough but in some offices it goes beyond simply the 'round/walk' one is doing but other associated duties, OT, SA, favourable treatment from management, holidays.

BTW, the face fits still works in some offices - even above seniority: some PTs in my offices gets some really good treatment including OT and coming in early above more senior and those with more hours - but they are lap dogs and brown noses.

[Surreypostie]

Our leave is not allocated on seniority, all the staff are in blocks, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc and the blocks rotate each year, so year 1 and block 1 gets 1st choice, next year those in block 1 choose last and block 2 moves to the top, you could start the job today and get the choice of holidays over someone who has been there for decades. Everybody is happy and most get their 1st choice of weeks.

[clashcityrocker]

Clash what most on forget is that there was a joint statement agreed after the way forward by Martin Collins for the CWU and Adrain Delso for Royal Mail which stated that all staff should get their first 4 weeks choice of leave and based on that principle a lot of offices then agreed seniority as the method. This was endorsed by Royal Mail as it was covered in this joint statement but I would not say it is that widespread.

These offices where the continued use of seniority was agreed -
1. How many part time staff did they have at the time of The Way Forward Agreement?
2. Has that decision (taken possibly 14 years ago) ever been revisited?

A business that treats its part time staff disadvantageously is on shaky legal ground.
A trade union that screws over its sub paying part time members is morally bankrupt.

[Dorset Plodder]

This post certainly touches on the two subjects of age & ability. Taking that no 2 Delivery Offices are the same I think RM should be aiming off and looking at solutions to the aging workforce (60% over 40...40% over 50)? There's a reason the Armed Forces kick people out at 40...You're Worn Out!

Some DOs still appear to have the "Old Mafia" of senior Posties who get an easy ride, some DOs seem to treat age/disability sensibly (The way forward I would suggest) but it still seems there's too many DOs being run by Incompetent Managers, who at best can't manage and at worst go out of their way to victimise, bully and discriminate. Adjusting Duties for their Mates and Toadies!

As with many problems at RM I would suggest that the problem starts with the Low Level Management. People will get away with what you let them get away with....Shame is a virtue unknown to many Posties who should know better!

[dvbuk55]

they should be transferred to Mail Centres to do some manual sorting or operate the MECH, it's a lot less stressful and would demonstrate a caring employer...

Thanks for that. Just what MCs need, a load of old boys who can barely use a TV remote operating £multi-million processing plant.
There's enough operators now who struggle with the simplest of operations, without adding in a load of walking dead as well...

Don't talk yourself down Tman I mean if you can tap a message out on here who knows over time you may be able to operate these complicated on/off switch machines.

[Dorset Plodder]

they should be transferred to Mail Centres to do some manual sorting or operate the MECH, it's a lot less stressful and would demonstrate a caring employer...

Thanks for that. Just what MCs need, a load of old boys who can barely use a TV remote operating £multi-million processing plant.
There's enough operators now who struggle with the simplest of operations, without adding in a load of walking dead as well...

Don't talk yourself down Tman I mean if you can tap a message out on here who knows over time you may be able to operate these complicated on/off switch machines.

[slinder123]

as i said before in my earlier post why cant the older mid fifties sixties be paired up or work a round on there own . most of the younger ones are all about rush and get home not doing the job as it should be done. the pressure is tremendous to try and do your job properly the manager always sides with the younger as they come in early do overtime in there hours instead of after which it should be work there days off . but they miss houses dont do the proper households sneak mail back in next day managers turn the usual blind eye. its not there fault they have smaller contract hours so grab the overtime when they can but the actions of this means that the resentment is built up between the age groups. get rid of the managers and we will go places cant wait for there day to come when you sign in and out and have to account for why you got overtime and finished before or on your hours

[TrueBlueTerrier]

sneak mail back in next day managers turn the usual blind eye.

Dangerous especially 200 years ago

On 8th May 1795 for example the Evening Mail reported that for “secreting a letter at the Post Office, Evan Morgan, a letter sorter, was ordered to be executed”. He was duly hanged on 20th May at the Old Bailey,

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... l.pdf.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[dvbuk55]

sneak mail back in next day managers turn the usual blind eye.

Dangerous especially 200 years ago

On 8th May 1795 for example the Evening Mail reported that for “secreting a letter at the Post Office, Evan Morgan, a letter sorter, was ordered to be executed”. He was duly hanged on 20th May at the Old Bailey,

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... l.pdf.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's time they did bring back hanging, I'm not too sure about concealing mail but hey you have to start somewhere.

[slinder123]

sneak mail back in next day managers turn the usual blind eye.

Dangerous especially 200 years ago

On 8th May 1795 for example the Evening Mail reported that for “secreting a letter at the Post Office, Evan Morgan, a letter sorter, was ordered to be executed”. He was duly hanged on 20th May at the Old Bailey,

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... l.pdf.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i wouldent go that far lol