Job & Done & Ghosting?

[DB1100]

As long as approached and dealt with correctly ghosting over time is not fraud or illegal

A little explanation here would help, how is claiming time for hours not worked not fraud or illegal if approached correctly. The mantra now is work every hour paid not get two hours pay for every hour worked. If someone finishes before their time there's something amiss because we no longer have job and finish.

As Terry says,often there's a loop or two left in our office and when nobody wants to do it for 45 mins,they increase the time paid until someone says they will do it,like a dutch auction.

[dvbuk55]

As long as approached and dealt with correctly ghosting over time is not fraud or illegal

A little explanation here would help, how is claiming time for hours not worked not fraud or illegal if approached correctly. The mantra now is work every hour paid not get two hours pay for every hour worked. If someone finishes before their time there's something amiss because we no longer have job and finish.

As Terry says,often there's a loop or two left in our office and when nobody wants to do it for 45 mins,they increase the time paid until someone says they will do it,like a dutch auction.

That is poor management and not an excuse to over pay for work within the time scale of the working day, the postman comes back early and he is sent out on the loops that are left, not bribed to work within his duty time, that is good management - sadly lacking in Royal Mail. IMHO it ranks alongside the managers favourites and sycophantic currying of favour on both sides of the divide. How many times have you seen someone given very light duties on return from sick and yet others are given little or no exception? I even heard of someone being allowed to "work from home" rather than going sick - that I have only seen once and nobody had heard of it before.

[chrisj]

We have also had people on light duties doing OT and/or SA...

But if the OT is not paid at the favourable rate and within or partly within contractual time, people will simply take their time on the job and/or stop coming in early. That will not be such a bad thing but it does not address the loops left behind or help cover for ad-hoc absence.

There are 3 issues here: one is folks on easier rounds and finishing early then doing OT, another is people coming in early and or working really fast and then doing OT within or partly within their hours and the last is posties claiming more hours than the actual hours they worked whilst doing OT.

All of the above is not mutually exclusive but they are not necessarily the same thing...

[rubberbond]

It would seem that it has always been this way, it will never change , unless we get managers who know how to manage, seniority as a "rank" is scrapped ,sadly neither will happen, the union are as much to blame as anybody.
Defending the indefensible.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

As long as approached and dealt with correctly ghosting over time is not fraud or illegal

A little explanation here would help, how is claiming time for hours not worked not fraud or illegal if approached correctly. The mantra now is work every hour paid not get two hours pay for every hour worked. If someone finishes before their time there's something amiss because we no longer have job and finish.

As Terry says,often there's a loop or two left in our office and when nobody wants to do it for 45 mins,they increase the time paid until someone says they will do it,like a dutch auction.

That is poor management and not an excuse to over pay for work within the time scale of the working day, the postman comes back early and he is sent out on the loops that are left, not bribed to work within his duty time, that is good management - sadly lacking in Royal Mail. IMHO it ranks alongside the managers favourites and sycophantic currying of favour on both sides of the divide. How many times have you seen someone given very light duties on return from sick and yet others are given little or no exception? I even heard of someone being allowed to "work from home" rather than going sick - that I have only seen once and nobody had heard of it before.

It may be poor management etc but as I said it's not fraud and not illegal. I didn't say it's a good thing just pointing out that in certain circumstances ghost over time happens quite legally and not fraudulently

[dvbuk55]

It may be poor management etc but as I said it's not fraud and not illegal. I didn't say it's a good thing just pointing out that in certain circumstances ghost over time happens quite legally and not fraudulently

Well if it came to hey lads hey it is fraudulent and therefore illegal. Because a manager says it's OK does not make it so, it's rather like speeding you know it's 30 mph but you think it's OK to do 36 until you're caught speeding. If someone books an hour over their time but actually doesn't work that hour is that OK? If it is why have people been sacked for it?

[themailman]

I'm not for one minute condoning guys that genuinely 'run' around their walks, but lets say for arguments sake all the walks in an office have been timed to exactly 4hr 30mins.
That's 270 minutes.
There can EASILY be a 10% natural difference in time between what some people work/walk at, so bang, there's 27 minutes straight off the bat.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

It may be poor management etc but as I said it's not fraud and not illegal. I didn't say it's a good thing just pointing out that in certain circumstances ghost over time happens quite legally and not fraudulently

Well if it came to hey lads hey it is fraudulent and therefore illegal. Because a manager says it's OK does not make it so, it's rather like speeding you know it's 30 mph but you think it's OK to do 36 until you're caught speeding. If someone books an hour over their time but actually doesn't work that hour is that OK? If it is why have people been sacked for it?

It's only fraud if the overtime is obtained by deception ie going out doing delivery and after you get back telling dom it took say 5 hours but you only worked 3

It's not deception when before you go out you say to dom you are willing to do the extra work but you want paid hours ot for it. There is no devotion therefore no fraud committed

[clashcityrocker]

There is no devotion therefore no fraud committed

I like the idea of devotion .....
Is there not a paper trail to say you worked 2 - 5 when in reality you only worked 2 -3?
Do you not have to sign your overtime sheet?

What national agreement allows you to be paid 3 hours overtime for 1 hours work?
The national agreement states work all paid hours. Anything else is a fraudulent claim for overtime.

[janitor]

If RM need to get a job done they pay the price to get the job done, easy as that, when I first started many years ago I was offered 2 hrs to do a quarter of a walk, I said to the manager what happens when no one wants it, does it stay till tomorrow, he says no I just raise the offer till it gets done, with zero hr contracts on the horizon, this will become a thing of the past, till then If RM want the work done they have to agree the price for the labour, Tim and a half, double time, treble time, if that's what they are willing to pay, who are we to argue.

[Bahia Feliz]

I did approx 1 hour of the walk next to mine today,I could have finished it within my duty finish time which is 2pm today without meal relief but, because I had my meal relief I got back to the office at 3.

[dave72]

We've no choice in our sub office, if we are done early there is nothing we can do about it

We don't make that much time these days tough. I will admit, before the p&l came in we did make some hours but lucky if we make 30 minutes now

[clashcityrocker]

If RM need to get a job done they pay the price to get the job done, easy as that, when I first started many years ago I was offered 2 hrs to do a quarter of a walk, I said to the manager what happens when no one wants it, does it stay till tomorrow, he says no I just raise the offer till it gets done, with zero hr contracts on the horizon, this will become a thing of the past, till then If RM want the work done they have to agree the price for the labour, Tim and a half, double time, treble time, if that's what they are willing to pay, who are we to argue.

Many moons ago there wasn't a national agreement that stated you had to work all your paid hours.
And what if they decide - I can get that walk covered at £7/hr.
Who would we be to argue?

[dvbuk55]

If RM need to get a job done they pay the price to get the job done, easy as that, when I first started many years ago I was offered 2 hrs to do a quarter of a walk, I said to the manager what happens when no one wants it, does it stay till tomorrow, he says no I just raise the offer till it gets done, with zero hr contracts on the horizon, this will become a thing of the past, till then If RM want the work done they have to agree the price for the labour, Tim and a half, double time, treble time, if that's what they are willing to pay, who are we to argue.

RM already pay the price for the work done not for the duty but the hours worked. There's obviously a misunderstanding somewhere when work all the hours paid, an agreed procedure, to do the duty and then get paid for the same hours again. RM could save a fortune by managing it's staff and organising the work in such a way that there is no spare time. I believe there will be moves afoot with the benching trials to be carried out but I'm not sure that's the answer tbh.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

There is no devotion therefore no fraud committed

I like the idea of devotion .....
Is there not a paper trail to say you worked 2 - 5 when in reality you only worked 2 -3?
Do you not have to sign your overtime sheet?

What national agreement allows you to be paid 3 hours overtime for 1 hours work?
The national agreement states work all paid hours. Anything else is a fraudulent claim for overtime.

Yeah stupid auto correct!

but regardless of being against a national agreement it still is not fraud. Fraud is obtaining money etc by deception and getting the ok from the dom before had means no deception has taken place