Latest on news24 re deal

[de-coded]

Pay Deal will be more like the manager's deal, nice pay rise of up to 6.9% over two years (now and next april, possibly backdated to this April) and the Pension Scheme becoming Career Average (won't be popular).

As for all the conditions who know's possibly as mentioned local arrangements will be made, so much for everyone is equal and treated the same.

What everyone needs to check on is things like MTSF agreement as RM could give you 6.9% payrise but take more off you by changes to hours, no door 2 door payments etc

At least everyone will get to vote on it, finally the union will show its true colours depending on what they have agreed to.

[wraeth]

At least everyone will get to vote on it, finally the union will show its true colours depending on what they have agreed to.

I hope they do.

[stephen500]

flexibility to be agreed at local level and the pay rise to be closer to 2.5%.

Does that allow Rm to pick us off one office at a time?

[strangler]

Yes we will get a vote. Also as well as the MTSF (which RM wanted scrapped) I`m wondering if we`ll be going over to monthly pay. Not a big issue I know but that in itself will save RM money on admin, etc

[Rob Ray]

May sound harsh but we have to protect all the current staff rather than sacrifice years of hard work/ contributions for those that may join in years to come.

And when the successors of Allan and Adam come back in a few years time for your pension, which any cursory glance at union history tells us they will, what argument are you going to use to get out all the youngsters for a solid strike?

I know exactly how they'd reply. "May sound harsh..."

[manwithnovan]

Very intresting the word local level, hopefully we can go back to the days when the boss needs something covered & we needed a day off you know TRUST/ Scratching each others back. It used to work perfectly in our office, it was never heard of that a round was left not done
Maybe its just me but im going going down boots to buy a big case of KY jelly to make the shafting easy

[LondonUNISON]

They`ll know what the proposed pension scheme for them is when they apply for the job. If they don`t fancy it they shouldn`t join. May sound harsh but we have to protect all the current staff rather than sacrifice years of hard work/ contributions for those that may join in years to come.

What Rob Roy is saying is true. They will come back for your pensions at a later point, just as they will come back for the PCS pensions as well. But it will be even quicker with the CWU because of the much higher turn over of staff.

A two tier system and will be used to turn sections of the work force against each other. And I don't mean this in a bad way but what you're writing reflects that. It is a dream come true for the management to have a two tier union and workforce that's why I thought it was bad that the PCS presented their deal as a victory when in fact it was a defeat.

The view of "they`ll know what the proposed pension scheme for them is when they apply for the job. If they don`t fancy it they shouldn`t join." is little different from people who are telling you that your strike is wrong and if you don't like the conditions then get another job.

Sorry if this comes across as a dig, it's not meant that way I'm just saying that a two tier pensions deal and local agreements for flexibility will divide the workforce and undermine solidarity. And in the long run you'll lose your pension rights anyway when they pick the best time to come back on the attack.

They don't mind giving you a bit extra in pay (and as inflation is at over 4% you're still getting a pay cut even if it's less of a pay cut than the offer they're giving UNISON at the moement), but what they really want is to weaken the union so they can have better attacks in the future. A two tier workforce and local agreements will lay the ground for them very nicely. It's like when they stock piled the coal and gave certain sections of industry good deals so they could then smash the NUM.

[madsorter]

the job and finish was what screwed you up, by showing the Boses that you can do more for less, theythinkthey can get away with murder, the Job and Finish puts you on shaky grounds

ive always said this and encouraged people to stretch the job out or slow down even if it means forfeiting a flyer, whats the point showing them the job can be done in less time, paves the way for part time across the board imo.

[manwithnovan]

Job & Finish....How can they expect a 50 year old to go as quick as a 20 year old postie

[pop it in pete]

Job & Finish....How can they expect a 50 year old to go as quick as a 20 year old postie

Just what i said to the wife the other day!

[strangler]

May sound harsh but we have to protect all the current staff rather than sacrifice years of hard work/ contributions for those that may join in years to come.

And when the successors of Allan and Adam come back in a few years time for your pension, which any cursory glance at union history tells us they will, what argument are you going to use to get out all the youngsters for a solid strike?

I know exactly how they'd reply. "May sound harsh..."

So you`re saying final salary scheme should stay for all? We`d all like to see that but even pension experts (of which I`m not one) are saying this cannot happen.
What I was saying is that this being the case, those that have been paying into the scheme should have some form of protection built into it that it cannot be messed about with by L&C or their successors as you say.
Perhaps you`d like to tell a few I know aged around 55 that planned on retiring at 60, "Sorry if you want to go at 60 you`ll lose 25%+ of your pension but hey, look on the bright side, at least anyone that joins in future will have the same scheme".
Now that`s harsh.

[strangler]

They`ll know what the proposed pension scheme for them is when they apply for the job. If they don`t fancy it they shouldn`t join. May sound harsh but we have to protect all the current staff rather than sacrifice years of hard work/ contributions for those that may join in years to come.

The view of "they`ll know what the proposed pension scheme for them is when they apply for the job. If they don`t fancy it they shouldn`t join." is little different from people who are telling you that your strike is wrong and if you don't like the conditions then get another job.

No problem. It is a difficult one and whichever way it goes I can`t see it satisfying everyone. Interesting to hear your views/experiences re 2 tier workforce. We have to a lesser degree already in RM. Wages are different depending on which office/area/training you have. There are many cases of 2 doing the same job and one getting more money than the other in my office alone. I think it`s crazy for example, that delivery staff get less for example than people in an RDC.
Disagree with your last point though. We joined RM because of the terms and conditions so striking to defend these is a bit different to saying to someone who might join "here are the t & cs sign if you`re happy to accept these".

[mailjock]

No of course they can't and that is another reason for attacking the pension scheme in the way they have - they are basically giving older punters till 2010 to get out cos that's what the management want.

They want a younger, part-time delivery staff, who will not be as strongly unionised. Just caught someone on telly from RM saying that it would make sense to split the delivery side off from the business to deal with USO obligations.

Well, we know that's been an aim for a while - set-up new company so that other units couldn't strike in support and vice versa.

I'm afraid we are only in the opening stages of the war which will go on until either the government comes to its senses and realises it has to defend the service or we or the company - or both - are destroyed.

I am not being negative just trying to make sure that we don't get carried away with latest news - we have got to be planning for all of the attacks that are coming.

One good thing about this strike is the solidarity that has been shown - we know who the strike breakers are now - probably had a good idea before right enough. But now we know and they know we know. We must continue to build on this solidarity and get ready for the next time.

Just wondering? - if we have won a better pension deal than the managers do they still keep their crap deal or will they have to thank us for securing not only their financial future but that of their families' futures as well.

[dvbuk55]

Well the solution to the quandry is this:

We will see the agreement as put to the PEC on Monday - if it looks like a solution we vote YES - if it doesn't we vote NO.
We do pay the Union Officers wages and they WILL do as instructed.
We are many they are few.

[LondonUNISON]

Cheers for the reply strangler. I guess you're right about there being a difference in terms of you already signed up for something but I guess my main point was about a two tier deal undermining solidarity.

So you`re saying final salary scheme should stay for all? We`d all like to see that but even pension experts (of which I`m not one) are saying this cannot happen.

What I was saying is that this being the case, those that have been paying into the scheme should have some form of protection built into it that it cannot be messed about with by L&C or their successors as you say.

But I just don't believe what they say. The last few years have seen an almost unprecedented growth in the world economy yet attacks on workers rights and conditions carry on unrelenting. This all started back in the 1980s when the world economy was in trouble and Thatcher and Reagan led massive attacks on the unions and our conditions, over here the miner's strike summed it all up really. Unfortunately they got the better of us and set the workers movement back decades. But even though they now have had huge new markets (Russia, China etc) to boost their profits they know they can keep attacking us as the union movement is so weak (which is why I think the RMTs idea to build a rank and file union movement and new national stewards movement is so vital).

But in reality they could easily keep on paying final salary scheme to workers (like they do for MPs, those in the city and all the bosses), but it would mean some wealth redistribution, which they won't accept. It's not that the money isn't there (profits and city bonuses are at record highs, as are order of luxury goods for the super rich), it's that they don't want us to have it. From that point of view I'm saying that new workers and existing workers should all keep the final salary pension scheme and if this is given up on (like in the civil service) then in the long run it will be a big blow to unions and workforces generally. I agree that in many places two tier or multi tier workplaces are already creeping in (under the guise of ever more supervisor grades, performance related pay, local agreements etc), but the pensions issue really is a big one. And even if they say existing people have their rights as soon as they know the workforce is divided enough (through new arrivals) they'll be back and take your pensions away (which given turnaround times of staff in the postal service won't be that long). And they'll give all the same reasons they always do, we can't afford it, we can't be stuck in the past etc etc

Except all of what they say, to put it bluntly, is a load of crap. As said how can it be that services are cut year on year, real wages are being cut, pensions being downgraded, privatisations etc when the economy has been booming and profit rates at their highest since the 1960s (the figures for profits over the last few years are staggering). It's simply because they are never satisfied as they scough down their profits in the trough. And until we stand up and fight back they'll keep cutting and cutting.

If you do get local negotiations and a two tier pension system that will be a real blow to creating the fight back and keeping solidarity in the long term.

I'm afraid we are only in the opening stages of the war

This is very true and doesn't just apply to the CWU but the whole union movement. For far too long those bastards who head the TUC and get six figures salaries (along with most of the general secretaries), just sell us off so long as they get their lordship and huge pay. We have to change this. Why shouldn't general secretaries get exactly the same conditions as us for instance? Why shouldn't they get the average pay of the workers they represent? I'm sick of those self-serving bastards.