Lincox wrote:In my case 3 years ago I refused to flex due to picking up grandson from school. The same days my colleagues were paid overtime as they were prepared to complete. My manager at the time became very irate on the phone and told me he was coming over to our sub depot to see me. On arrival he asked me again if I would flex and I refused. He gave me 5 minutes to change my mind and if I refused I would be suspended and taken down the conduct code. I didn,t give him the chance. I walked out and contacted my area rep. I received a letter over the week end telling me that my pay had been deducted and I was given a date for a meeting to discuss my reasons for leaving the office and to discuss my conduct. It so happened that I already had presented a grievance against this manager, and because of this he was unable to suspend me and my pay was reinstated by a more senior manager. The meeting to discuss conduct coding was also recinded. My grievance took 18 months to conclude.
This is why halfful, unless you have gone through this sort of harassment because managers read into this agreement what they want, you have no idea what you are talking about.
so what your saying is im right, i dont care what managers read into this agreement, he couldn't stop your pay or suspend you due to you not working over!
A manager could try & bully you into doing it is what your saying? Well thats what reps, grievance & b&h complaints are for.
Like ive said before & ill say for the last time! You cannot be made to work over your finish time with the 30 minute flex rule or any other reason if you cannot do it!
Lincox wrote:In my case 3 years ago I refused to flex due to picking up grandson from school. The same days my colleagues were paid overtime as they were prepared to complete. My manager at the time became very irate on the phone and told me he was coming over to our sub depot to see me. On arrival he asked me again if I would flex and I refused. He gave me 5 minutes to change my mind and if I refused I would be suspended and taken down the conduct code. I didn,t give him the chance. I walked out and contacted my area rep. I received a letter over the week end telling me that my pay had been deducted and I was given a date for a meeting to discuss my reasons for leaving the office and to discuss my conduct. It so happened that I already had presented a grievance against this manager, and because of this he was unable to suspend me and my pay was reinstated by a more senior manager. The meeting to discuss conduct coding was also recinded. My grievance took 18 months to conclude.
This is why halfful, unless you have gone through this sort of harassment because managers read into this agreement what they want, you have no idea what you are talking about.
so what your saying is im right, i dont care what managers read into this agreement, he couldn't stop your pay or suspend you due to you not working over!
A manager could try & bully you into doing it is what your saying? Well thats what reps, grievance & b&h complaints are for.
Like ive said before & ill say for the last time! You cannot be made to work over your finish time with the 30 minute flex rule or any other reason if you cannot do it!
Agreed with halfull, he was bullshitting you. As I've said in this thread, we operate pretty much a flexible 39hr week (within reason). However, if someone doesn't want to or can't work over on any given day then the managers will accept it. They won't be happy sometimes, especially if those concerned are under for the week but they cannot force you to work past your finish time on any given day.
I don't know why your grievance took so long to sort when your manager was clearly in the wrong.
It took so long because at every stage it was delayed by managers who went off sick, went on holiday, or who in etween were moved to other areas. HR appointed a DSM who so happened to be the manager of the manager who my grievance was about to deal with the appeal .He was renowned for supporting his managers whatever they did. My Area Rep refused to accept him as a independant so this delayed the situation again. On a Flyer, you should know how Royal Mail work as far as grievances and B&h are concerned. They will admit to nothing even though I had written witness statements from colleagues who witnessed the events that occurred when this manager cam over to the office. In the end a Manager from Transport Division was brought in to hear my appeal. I had to wait a further 3 months for him to provide a written statement of his findings. He reluctantly agreed that I had been singled out and treated differently to my other colleagues. He provided a list of things that needed to happen including a meeting with the DSM mentioned above, the manager, myself and the Area Rep to thrash out our differences. Guess what, it never happened. The DSM used every trick in the book to make sure it never happened.
So what should someone do if they haven't been repaid the 30 minutes flexibility in 5 days? In fact the manager believes the 30 minutes has been paid back because of the time I spent talking to my rep and was under my time on one of the 5 days. I was the only one asked to flex, everyone who went over were paid OT, manager also seems not to know the flex agreement, firstly claiming I already had the time back, then by claiming he paid me OT for it.
superports wrote:So what should someone do if they haven't been repaid the 30 minutes flexibility in 5 days? In fact the manager believes the 30 minutes has been paid back because of the time I spent talking to my rep and was under my time on one of the 5 days. I was the only one asked to flex, everyone who went over were paid OT, manager also seems not to know the flex agreement, firstly claiming I already had the time back, then by claiming he paid me OT for it.
To me it's simple. Did you work over 39hrs? If not then you got the 30 minutes back. If you did work over 39hrs then you want paying.
superports wrote:So what should someone do if they haven't been repaid the 30 minutes flexibility in 5 days? In fact the manager believes the 30 minutes has been paid back because of the time I spent talking to my rep and was under my time on one of the 5 days. I was the only one asked to flex, everyone who went over were paid OT, manager also seems not to know the flex agreement, firstly claiming I already had the time back, then by claiming he paid me OT for it.
superports wrote:So what should someone do if they haven't been repaid the 30 minutes flexibility in 5 days? In fact the manager believes the 30 minutes has been paid back because of the time I spent talking to my rep and was under my time on one of the 5 days. I was the only one asked to flex, everyone who went over were paid OT, manager also seems not to know the flex agreement, firstly claiming I already had the time back, then by claiming he paid me OT for it.
To me it's simple. Did you work over 39hrs? If not then you got the 30 minutes back. If you did work over 39hrs then you want paying.
totally wrong, this would be banking hours which is not agreed.
Each day is a new day, if you go over you should be paid unless you have AGREED that you will flex 30 minutes over & have AGREED what day you will get it back.
OnAFlyer wrote:
To me it's simple. Did you work over 39hrs? If not then you got the 30 minutes back. If you did work over 39hrs then you want paying.
Yes, I did work over 39 hours. That's not my complaint. My complaint is I was the only one in the office asked to be flexible, anyone else who was over their time was paid. So clearly there can't have been "exceptional circumstances" if I was the only one asked. Seems like "Flexibility" is used when someone says they can't or don't wish to work past their contracted hours. Flexibility is agreeing to work an extra 30 minutes, unpaid, on the understanding that you will get the 30 minutes back inside 5 days.
OnAFlyer wrote:
To me it's simple. Did you work over 39hrs? If not then you got the 30 minutes back. If you did work over 39hrs then you want paying.
Yes, I did work over 39 hours. That's not my complaint. My complaint is I was the only one in the office asked to be flexible, anyone else who was over their time was paid. So clearly there can't have been "exceptional circumstances" if I was the only one asked. Seems like "Flexibility" is used when someone says they can't or don't wish to work past their contracted hours. Flexibility is agreeing to work an extra 30 minutes, unpaid, on the understanding that you will get the 30 minutes back inside 5 days.
this is a clear case of victimization to me the way you have explained it & you need to put a grievance in & get your area rep involved if your not happy with how its being dealt with.
whether you worked 39 hours over the week is completely irrelevant, we are not on flexi hours over the week! you have a start and finish time everyday which is managements responsibility to fill!
30 minute flex is not a savings tool its an exceptional circumstances tool.
superports wrote:So what should someone do if they haven't been repaid the 30 minutes flexibility in 5 days? In fact the manager believes the 30 minutes has been paid back because of the time I spent talking to my rep and was under my time on one of the 5 days. I was the only one asked to flex, everyone who went over were paid OT, manager also seems not to know the flex agreement, firstly claiming I already had the time back, then by claiming he paid me OT for it.
this should be a grievance
Yes it should halfull, this is exactly the same example that took me 18 months to go through grievance, and still we see Royal Mail Managers using their own spin on a terribly worded agreement which you seem to consider to be straightforward.
superports wrote:So what should someone do if they haven't been repaid the 30 minutes flexibility in 5 days? In fact the manager believes the 30 minutes has been paid back because of the time I spent talking to my rep and was under my time on one of the 5 days. I was the only one asked to flex, everyone who went over were paid OT, manager also seems not to know the flex agreement, firstly claiming I already had the time back, then by claiming he paid me OT for it.
this should be a grievance
Yes it should halfull, this is exactly the same example that took me 18 months to go through grievance, and still we see Royal Mail Managers using their own spin on a terribly worded agreement which you seem to consider to be straightforward.
its very straight forward if you have a rep, because he will just register a stage 1 disagreement on the basis of the miss use of the 30 minute flex rule.
Once he is proven right that will be the end of the 30 minute flex rule being abused.
superports wrote:So what should someone do if they haven't been repaid the 30 minutes flexibility in 5 days? In fact the manager believes the 30 minutes has been paid back because of the time I spent talking to my rep and was under my time on one of the 5 days. I was the only one asked to flex, everyone who went over were paid OT, manager also seems not to know the flex agreement, firstly claiming I already had the time back, then by claiming he paid me OT for it.
To me it's simple. Did you work over 39hrs? If not then you got the 30 minutes back. If you did work over 39hrs then you want paying.
totally wrong, this would be banking hours which is not agreed.
Each day is a new day, if you go over you should be paid unless you have AGREED that you will flex 30 minutes over & have AGREED what day you will get it back.
Any reasonable person would say if you worked 30 minutes over one day, and 30 minutes under another then that evens it out.
Only in the world of RM do people still expect to be paid overtime when they haven't even worked their hours for the week. And yes, I'm fully aware of what the agreement is.
Obviously if certain people are treated differently then that clearly isn't right.
superports wrote:So what should someone do if they haven't been repaid the 30 minutes flexibility in 5 days? In fact the manager believes the 30 minutes has been paid back because of the time I spent talking to my rep and was under my time on one of the 5 days. I was the only one asked to flex, everyone who went over were paid OT, manager also seems not to know the flex agreement, firstly claiming I already had the time back, then by claiming he paid me OT for it.
To me it's simple. Did you work over 39hrs? If not then you got the 30 minutes back. If you did work over 39hrs then you want paying.
totally wrong, this would be banking hours which is not agreed.
Each day is a new day, if you go over you should be paid unless you have AGREED that you will flex 30 minutes over & have AGREED what day you will get it back.
Any reasonable person would say if you worked 30 minutes over one day, and 30 minutes under another then that evens it out.
Only in the world of RM do people still expect to be paid overtime when they haven't even worked their hours for the week. And yes, I'm fully aware of what the agreement is.
Obviously if certain people are treated differently then that clearly isn't right.
so tell me what you would do with the people that cannot work over but are willing to work their hours everyday?
halfull wrote:so tell me what you would do with the people that cannot work over but are willing to work their hours everyday?
Make them work their hours each day.
It isn't rocket science.
so what if they only have enough work on a tuesday to take them to 30 minutes before there finish time & there was nothing else to do then the next day there was so much work it would take them 45 minutes over their time but they cannot work over due to commitments?
Would you say they owe the company time so must work over? No, they are wiling to work their hours everyday so they have done their job.
And ive never said we cant be made to work all our hours each day,but carrying time from one day to the next is not agreed, its banking hours.
