COURIER PAGE 19

[banner18]

It may be taking advantage of the notion to open a porch door to leave a parcel, but thats the way it is.

It is not "taking advantage of the notion." It is doorstepping.
It tells you so in The Courier.
But I'm sure you know better.

Doorstepping - leaving MAIL or parcels in a visible or insecure place.
We return to the original point about delivering any mail to virtually any door.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

A number of problems arise with this though.

1. Many times doors with letterboxes are ajar when we arrive. So all mail for these is undeliverable?

Depends are the residents in view, can you hear movement in the house - if so then its secure you just need to put the mail out of direct site of passersby. In other words assess the situation and make a decision based on the circumstances. If no-one is around and there is no sign of life then you can make the decision to not deliver. I have done so in the past.

2. Many times doors open as we deliver the mail. So the mail then becomes undeliverable?

As above

3. Posties know by experience which of their customers porch doors and in many cases front doors are unlocked. I'd say over 75% of porch doors on my duty are unlocked. So without delivering we know the mail will be insecure therefore we shouldn't deliver any mail to these houses?

Technically - yes you shouldn't deliver if you know the address is insecure. However the fact that a closed door may be unlocked does not make it an insecure delivery, its that fact that at the point of delivering you know its insecure, because you opened it.

4. Many boxes have keys left in or are open, so the mail is undeliverable?

I have never had this happen to me, but if it did I would return the mail to the DO to deliver the next day, endorsing the mail as insecure.

It just creates a minefield if we try move away from the simple idea that beyond the letter box flap is considered delivered. It may be taking advantage of the notion to open a porch door to leave a parcel, but thats the way it is. The trespass argument will only be a problem if the occupier made a complaint which I have never heard of in all my years as a postie.

To be frank it only constitutes a minefield if you overthink the situation. Closed door - deliver, Closed Mail Box - Deliver. Open door - assess the situation. You open the door - you know its insecure .

Again to be frank we all know the rules - if you decide to circumvent them, even with the best intentions possible, then you are doing so hopefully in the full knowledge of what can happen if the proverbial hits the fan. By the way I include myself in that, I have taken the risk on occasion of going against the rules, but then I accepted the possible ramifications and decided that the risk was worth it. That's all anyone can do, assess the risk and the accept and understand the consequences of being caught out.

[halfull]

what do we do with the address points that have an unlocked porch & no letterbox on the inside door?

Do we demand they get a new door on the inside with a letterbox on?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

You don't open the porch - problem circumvented.

[halfull]

It may be taking advantage of the notion to open a porch door to leave a parcel, but thats the way it is.

It is not "taking advantage of the notion." It is doorstepping.
It tells you so in The Courier.
But I'm sure you know better.

Managers at our D.O were asked about all of this in WTL on tuesdau & their answer was as far they know, if porch is open packets/mail can be left inside.
So maybe they know better too!
If this is enforced around the country that no packets/mail can be left in unlocked porches id say the 1st time everytime campaign will last as long as a cwu agreement with the royaymail!
A huge number of packets get left in porches up & down the country everyday & if stopped they will see a huge increase in returns & will soon change the rules & state if they owner leaves porch open its on them.

[halfull]

You don't open the porch - problem circumvented.

clever very clever like how you did that!
But can you tell me what we do if the porch door is open & there is no letterbox on the inside door?
Do we tell the owner they must lock the porch or get inside door with letterbox before they can get a royalmail delivery?
Who are we? the police?

[banner18]

A number of problems arise with this though.

1. Many times doors with letterboxes are ajar when we arrive. So all mail for these is undeliverable?

Depends are the residents in view, can you hear movement in the house - if so then its secure you just need to put the mail out of direct site of passersby. In other words assess the situation and make a decision based on the circumstances. If no-one is around and there is no sign of life then you can make the decision to not deliver. I have done so in the past.

2. Many times doors open as we deliver the mail. So the mail then becomes undeliverable?

As above

3. Posties know by experience which of their customers porch doors and in many cases front doors are unlocked. I'd say over 75% of porch doors on my duty are unlocked. So without delivering we know the mail will be insecure therefore we shouldn't deliver any mail to these houses?

Technically - yes you shouldn't deliver if you know the address is insecure. However the fact that a closed door may be unlocked does not make it an insecure delivery, its that fact that at the point of delivering you know its insecure, because you opened it.

4. Many boxes have keys left in or are open, so the mail is undeliverable?

I have never had this happen to me, but if it did I would return the mail to the DO to deliver the next day, endorsing the mail as insecure.

It just creates a minefield if we try move away from the simple idea that beyond the letter box flap is considered delivered. It may be taking advantage of the notion to open a porch door to leave a parcel, but thats the way it is. The trespass argument will only be a problem if the occupier made a complaint which I have never heard of in all my years as a postie.

To be frank it only constitutes a minefield if you overthink the situation. Closed door - deliver, Closed Mail Box - Deliver. Open door - assess the situation. You open the door - you know its insecure .

Again to be frank we all know the rules - if you decide to circumvent them, even with the best intentions possible, then you are doing so hopefully in the full knowledge of what can happen if the proverbial hits the fan. By the way I include myself in that, I have taken the risk on occasion of going against the rules, but then I accepted the possible ramifications and decided that the risk was worth it. That's all anyone can do, assess the risk and the accept and understand the consequences of being caught out.

I take all your points here. I would add though that customs and practice would form part of a very good defence should someone find themselves in trouble where porches are concerned (which i've never heard of btw). If one has been delivering over a long period in the same kind of way and no complaint has arisen, it has become custom and practice at that point to post through porches and leave parcels in porches.

[bustedflush]

A number of problems arise with this though.

1. Many times doors with letterboxes are ajar when we arrive. So all mail for these is undeliverable?

Depends are the residents in view, can you hear movement in the house - if so then its secure you just need to put the mail out of direct site of passersby. In other words assess the situation and make a decision based on the circumstances. If no-one is around and there is no sign of life then you can make the decision to not deliver. I have done so in the past.

2. Many times doors open as we deliver the mail. So the mail then becomes undeliverable?

As above

3. Posties know by experience which of their customers porch doors and in many cases front doors are unlocked. I'd say over 75% of porch doors on my duty are unlocked. So without delivering we know the mail will be insecure therefore we shouldn't deliver any mail to these houses?

Technically - yes you shouldn't deliver if you know the address is insecure. However the fact that a closed door may be unlocked does not make it an insecure delivery, its that fact that at the point of delivering you know its insecure, because you opened it.

4. Many boxes have keys left in or are open, so the mail is undeliverable?

I have never had this happen to me, but if it did I would return the mail to the DO to deliver the next day, endorsing the mail as insecure.

It just creates a minefield if we try move away from the simple idea that beyond the letter box flap is considered delivered. It may be taking advantage of the notion to open a porch door to leave a parcel, but thats the way it is. The trespass argument will only be a problem if the occupier made a complaint which I have never heard of in all my years as a postie.

To be frank it only constitutes a minefield if you overthink the situation. Closed door - deliver, Closed Mail Box - Deliver. Open door - assess the situation. You open the door - you know its insecure .

Again to be frank we all know the rules - if you decide to circumvent them, even with the best intentions possible, then you are doing so hopefully in the full knowledge of what can happen if the proverbial hits the fan. By the way I include myself in that, I have taken the risk on occasion of going against the rules, but then I accepted the possible ramifications and decided that the risk was worth it. That's all anyone can do, assess the risk and the accept and understand the consequences of being caught out.

I take all your points here. I would add though that customs and practice would form part of a very good defence should someone find themselves in trouble where porches are concerned (which i've never heard of btw). If one has been delivering over a long period in the same kind of way and no complaint has arisen, it has become custom and practice at that point to post through porches and leave parcels in porches.

Indeed. 'Custom and Practice' is a mainstay of legal arguments including ET's. We must also add to the debate the situation regarding 'advice' given to reserves concerning certain addresses. On most rounds the regular will say "you've a package for number 5, they have a locked 6ft. side gate and they like it being dropped behind that" or similar. A newbie or reserve is very likely to heed the advice of the regular postie without question.

[thehobbit]

A number of problems arise with this though.

1. Many times doors with letterboxes are ajar when we arrive. So all mail for these is undeliverable?

Depends are the residents in view, can you hear movement in the house - if so then its secure you just need to put the mail out of direct site of passersby. In other words assess the situation and make a decision based on the circumstances. If no-one is around and there is no sign of life then you can make the decision to not deliver. I have done so in the past.

2. Many times doors open as we deliver the mail. So the mail then becomes undeliverable?

As above

3. Posties know by experience which of their customers porch doors and in many cases front doors are unlocked. I'd say over 75% of porch doors on my duty are unlocked. So without delivering we know the mail will be insecure therefore we shouldn't deliver any mail to these houses?

Technically - yes you shouldn't deliver if you know the address is insecure. However the fact that a closed door may be unlocked does not make it an insecure delivery, its that fact that at the point of delivering you know its insecure, because you opened it.

4. Many boxes have keys left in or are open, so the mail is undeliverable?

I have never had this happen to me, but if it did I would return the mail to the DO to deliver the next day, endorsing the mail as insecure.

It just creates a minefield if we try move away from the simple idea that beyond the letter box flap is considered delivered. It may be taking advantage of the notion to open a porch door to leave a parcel, but thats the way it is. The trespass argument will only be a problem if the occupier made a complaint which I have never heard of in all my years as a postie.

To be frank it only constitutes a minefield if you overthink the situation. Closed door - deliver, Closed Mail Box - Deliver. Open door - assess the situation. You open the door - you know its insecure .

Again to be frank we all know the rules - if you decide to circumvent them, even with the best intentions possible, then you are doing so hopefully in the full knowledge of what can happen if the proverbial hits the fan. By the way I include myself in that, I have taken the risk on occasion of going against the rules, but then I accepted the possible ramifications and decided that the risk was worth it. That's all anyone can do, assess the risk and the accept and understand the consequences of being caught out.

I take all your points here. I would add though that customs and practice would form part of a very good defence should someone find themselves in trouble where porches are concerned (which i've never heard of btw). If one has been delivering over a long period in the same kind of way and no complaint has arisen, it has become custom and practice at that point to post through porches and leave parcels in porches.

this is all very well untill something goes wrong , i have been happily with the customers express wishes been doing the same for years untill somthing went wrong the pda said it was delivered and they said it was not ,and they complained with the result i have been conducted and there is the definate possibility that i will lose my job , should i keep the job they are going to have to go to the depot many times , by the way i found out they had got the packet the same day as another of the familly had taken it in ,but did not bother to take back there complaint so the conduct still stands

[clashcityrocker]

I would add though that customs and practice would form part of a very good defence .

Practice of something you have been told not to do, repeatedly, would form part of a very good defence?
If you want to do it, carry on but don't pretend it is acceptable and anyone doing it is putting their job on the line.
If you work in an office with a need to reduce hours, s**t advice on here and big talk about ETs isn't going to impress anyone.
Doorstepping may cost you your job.

[banner18]

I would add though that customs and practice would form part of a very good defence .

Practice of something you have been told not to do, repeatedly, would form part of a very good defence?
If you want to do it, carry on but don't pretend it is acceptable and anyone doing it is putting their job on the line.
If you work in an office with a need to reduce hours, s**t advice on here and big talk about ETs isn't going to impress anyone.
Doorstepping may cost you your job.

I don't recall ever being told that delivering anything into porches is the same as doorstepping but we all know they would never come out with that statement so that it's clear cut. Instead it is dressed up in double speak and bad logic because they know in their hearts, just like we do that things like this form a part of the everyday normal functioning of this kind of job. Playing about with the definition of doorstepping is stupid when we all know in practicality that delivering past a letterbox is not doorstepping.

[halfull]

I would add though that customs and practice would form part of a very good defence .

Practice of something you have been told not to do, repeatedly, would form part of a very good defence?
If you want to do it, carry on but don't pretend it is acceptable and anyone doing it is putting their job on the line.
If you work in an office with a need to reduce hours, s**t advice on here and big talk about ETs isn't going to impress anyone.
Doorstepping may cost you your job.

who has been repeatedly told not to leave packets in an unlocked/open porch?
infact we have always been told the opposite in our D.O, just shows we all must get told different things about things, crazy really that managers in one office can say you can & others in different D.O's say you cannot!
But nobody can get away from what was in the courier & it did state clearly no packets can be left in unlocked porches so anyone who does it now knows its not to be done & could lead to conduct!
I for one will nolonger do it unless the home owner goes through the proper channels to allow me to do so by stating its a safe place!

[Jpro747]

Due to most of the porches being unlocked on my round, tomorrow I will be bringing half of my frame back and endorsing the mail as UTD due to unsecure delivery point.

[CAMPINGBLUNDERER]

Due to most of the porches being unlocked on my round, tomorrow I will be bringing half of my frame back and endorsing the mail as UTD due to unsecure delivery point.

Likewise , my 5 hr rural will now be done in half the time leaving me no excuse to not do my hours lapsing ..... happy days

[TrueBlueTerrier]

http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... 97&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Correct Delivery Of Mail Procedure 2014

Clarification of delivery point for addresses with an enclosed
porch

The delivery point for an address with a letter box on the external door of an enclosed porch is the
external door.

Where the porch door doesn’t have a letter box, is always unlocked, the letter box is on the inside
door and historically we have delivered via the porch to the letter box in the internal door, it can be
deemed that the addressee has provided unadvised consent that this is their nominated delivery
point.