COURIER PAGE 19

[clashcityrocker]

But the reply in the Courier completely contradicts your position.
Leaving it in the porch is the same as doorstepping.

[holly123]

ON THIS NOTE ,I WOULD LIKE THE MANAGMENT AND UNION TO GIVE US SOME SUPPORT ON WHAT TO DO ,SHAME WE ARE PIGGY IN THE MIDDLE ONCE AGAIN

[Lounge Lizard]

Lots of our guys still doorstep in plain view of the street just to finish as early as possible. I've often wondered how a reserve partner can get their loops and packets done so quickly only to deliver mail later and see the packet on the doorstep!

I bet they praised for not bringing back much as well!

silly really! is doing that really worth losing your job? Id say no!
doorstepping is like playing with fire if you ask me.

Yes, it still happens, parcels on doorsteps after my day off and some might consider me as 'slow'

[pod25]

Surely the same applies with letters ?
If the letter box is on the same porch door, that is left open by the owner, how then can Royal Mail say that parcels are not secure, but letters are ?
I have loads of porch doors, with no letter box on the inner door, my only point of delivery is the letter box in the porch door and those porch doors are always left open.

Where is the line ?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

There is no line from Royal Mail

There never was a line from Royal Mail.

The onus is on us.

Its the same as doorstepping.

If you are willing to accept the risk of the item going missing, and you having to explain why you left it then leave it in the porch. The worst that can happen - loss of employment, you being accused of theft.

If you do a dynamic risk assessment and assess it as safe to leave, then leave it, but the same applies you have to willing to explain why you did. The worst that can happen - loss of employment, you being accused of theft.

If you do a risk assessment and decide its marginally unsafe to leave it, and you don't, that's the best option. The worst that can happen, the manager gets a letter and has to reply, or you might get an ear bashing from the resident - But you keep your job.


It really is that simple. Any risk - assess it and make your own mind up knowing the repercussions if it goes FUBAR.

[Himaggen]

If I remember correctly, did the reply regarding this not specifically state an OPEN PORCH?

Is that a porch which can be opened? or one that cannot be closed? I would be happy to fully defend an OPG who interprets an open porch as the latter.

[banner18]

OMG logic 101 needed here.

Either it is ok to leave mail/parcels in a porch or it is not ok.
If it is not ok to leave them in a porch then ALL mail and packets for any household with a porch must be brought back and signed off because any porch is not secure.
If it is ok then any mail/parcels barring signed can be left in porches regardless of whether they are unlocked or not.

I contend that it is ok for a simple piece of logic. If a porch is not ok, the reason being because it could be unlocked. Well then any front door can be unlocked and therefore all mail cannot then be delivered on that basis. This is a logic paradox.

[clashcityrocker]

What logic?
If the porch is locked, you can't put the packet inside.
If the porch is unlocked anybody can open it and remove the packet that has been left.

What is the difference between a porch and a wheelie bin?
Leaving the packet unsecured is the same as doorstepping.

If the mail (letters) can't be secured then a postie is well within his rights to return it to the DO.

[Straight4ward]

What is the difference between a porch and a wheelie bin?

porch.jpg

wheelie-bin.jpg

Hope this helps, Clash.
(BTW the wheelie-bin's the green one.)

[clashcityrocker]

[banner18]

What logic?
If the porch is locked, you can't put the packet inside.
If the porch is unlocked anybody can open it and remove the packet that has been left.

What is the difference between a porch and a wheelie bin?
Leaving the packet unsecured is the same as doorstepping.

If the mail (letters) can't be secured then a postie is well within his rights to return it to the DO.

omg please help me? So if a porch is unlocked then mail cannot be left either. This also means that if a front door is unlocked then mail cannot be left. Seen as we don't go checking every door then all mail is undeliverable??? Am I missing something?

[banner18]

Also the threshold bit is crap. Plenty of people have boxes on walls and it is considered ok to deliver to. The fact is, if there is a letter box in a door, or a box on the wall, then beyond the letter flap opening ,any item is considered to be delivered and I'd love to see any tribunal not uphold that.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

omg please help me? So if a porch is unlocked then mail cannot be left either. This also means that if a front door is unlocked then mail cannot be left. Seen as we don't go checking every door then all mail is undeliverable??? Am I missing something?

Yes - If a door is closed you as the non-resident can make a presumption that its secure. This is acceptable for 2 reasons, if you attempt to open the door without permission you may be guilty of committing trespass, and the second you mentioned yourself we can't be expected to check every door.

But if you open a porch (with permission), you have proved that's its insecure, so going by the letter of the law, if you leave mail there that is also insecure.

The thing your missing is the defence of presumption, and you can't presume something if you by your actions have proved the opposite.


In response to your 2nd post when I was typing this: The box on the walls normally need a key to open - so you can once again presume its secure.

[banner18]

omg please help me? So if a porch is unlocked then mail cannot be left either. This also means that if a front door is unlocked then mail cannot be left. Seen as we don't go checking every door then all mail is undeliverable??? Am I missing something?

Yes - If a door is closed you as the non-resident can make a presumption that its secure. This is acceptable for 2 reasons, if you attempt to open the door without permission you may be guilty of committing trespass, and the second you mentioned yourself we can't be expected to check every door.

But if you open a porch (with permission), you have proved that's its insecure, so going by the letter of the law, if you leave mail there that is also insecure.

The thing your missing is the defence of presumption, and you can't presume something if you by your actions have proved the opposite.


In response to your 2nd post when I was typing this: The box on the walls normally need a key to open - so you can once again presume its secure.

A number of problems arise with this though.

1. Many times doors with letterboxes are ajar when we arrive. So all mail for these is undeliverable?
2. Many times doors open as we deliver the mail. So the mail then becomes undeliverable?
3. Posties know by experience which of their customers porch doors and in many cases front doors are unlocked. I'd say over 75% of porch doors on my duty are unlocked. So without delivering we know the mail will be insecure therefore we shouldn't deliver any mail to these houses?
4. Many boxes have keys left in or are open, so the mail is undeliverable?

It just creates a minefield if we try move away from the simple idea that beyond the letter box flap is considered delivered. It may be taking advantage of the notion to open a porch door to leave a parcel, but thats the way it is. The trespass argument will only be a problem if the occupier made a complaint which I have never heard of in all my years as a postie.

[clashcityrocker]

It may be taking advantage of the notion to open a porch door to leave a parcel, but thats the way it is.

It is not "taking advantage of the notion." It is doorstepping.
It tells you so in The Courier.
But I'm sure you know better.