Revised Agreement -Deliver to Neighbour/First Time Delivery

[halfull]

If we want to maintain jobs then we have to capture more work including more parcels to replace falling revenue and falling volumes from both DSA and indeed end to end delivery.

Yodel only pay on successful delivery , as do other companies.

Royal Mail have lost 30% year on year traffic from Amazon based on them deciding to do there ow delivery or paying self employed drivers.

The biggest single complaint from a customer is a 739 complaint it costs £25 to handle every complaint and then there is compensation on top to be paid.

Now if your not in an area where Amazon parcels have not declined and have either the same amount of attendance calls or more then if it takes you more time then this should be registered all be it the trials have shown that there is little overall difference from delivering to neighbour then having to pouch off and redeliver on a seperate day as requested by the customer.

Now some may not like this but we are in a different competitive world where the big supply companies like Amazon , ASOS and many more demand more. First time delivery arrangements or you don't get their business.

The CWU have to look at protecting jobs in that kind of market and if that means that you fill up your duty or even have to adjust your duty then that is what a responsible union would do in today's climate. There are many companies who failed to adapt to competition who have gone to the wall , KODAK , Woolwoth and Blockbusters are just 3 of many.

The joint statement still allows where a post person deems it unsafe to deliver to neighbour to use his or her discression. However how many parcels leave an office on a day and how many are 739 and put in the callers office before the OPG goes put. The PDA trials in the 20 offices have demonstrated that this is the case in some of those offices.

so where is the time to do this 20-30x per day?

[steve1873]

If we want to maintain jobs then we have to capture more work including more parcels to replace falling revenue and falling volumes from both DSA and indeed end to end delivery.

Yodel only pay on successful delivery , as do other companies.

Royal Mail have lost 30% year on year traffic from Amazon based on them deciding to do there ow delivery or paying self employed drivers.

The biggest single complaint from a customer is a 739 complaint it costs £25 to handle every complaint and then there is compensation on top to be paid.

Now if your not in an area where Amazon parcels have not declined and have either the same amount of attendance calls or more then if it takes you more time then this should be registered all be it the trials have shown that there is little overall difference from delivering to neighbour then having to pouch off and redeliver on a seperate day as requested by the customer.

Now some may not like this but we are in a different competitive world where the big supply companies like Amazon , ASOS and many more demand more. First time delivery arrangements or you don't get their business.

The CWU have to look at protecting jobs in that kind of market and if that means that you fill up your duty or even have to adjust your duty then that is what a responsible union would do in today's climate. There are many companies who failed to adapt to competition who have gone to the wall , KODAK , Woolwoth and Blockbusters are just 3 of many.

The joint statement still allows where a post person deems it unsafe to deliver to neighbour to use his or her discression. However how many parcels leave an office on a day and how many are 739 and put in the callers office before the OPG goes put. The PDA trials in the 20 offices have demonstrated that this is the case in some of those offices.

so where is the time to do this 20-30x per day?

Don't you know it doesn't take anymore time - they are retro-fitting some of those teleporters from Star Trek in to the PDA's so that we can be beemed from 1 address to the next in an instant. I mean they must be right? The trial offices said it takes no additional time, so they must be using some sort of teleportation or time manipulation device!

I don't even know how to use the sat-nav function!

[Himaggen]

Now if your not in an area where Amazon parcels have not declined and have either the same amount of attendance calls or more then if it takes you more time then this should be registered

It's high time the Union attempted to get their mindset and arses out of the cities. You should be making National decisions based on the big picture, and you cannot see the big picture if your too close to it. Everything in town land has to be bought online, we cannot pop to the large retailers and buy stuff and it is too expensive/inefficient for the competition to deliver with sufficient regularity to affect our business. In town land we don't have nannies and butlers handling trade callers and taking in packets and parcels during the day. If a recipient can afford to buy stuff then they live in a 'working' street and everybody is out; if people are in then that's because they've either got no job and therefore cannot buy stuff or they're retired and either unwilling to adapt or too scared to purchase online.

It's incredible sometimes how you can pick and choose when you want local agreements and national ones. It appears to me that every national one should have been local and every local one should have been national.

[IloveMYredTROLLEY!]

All this does is muddy the water further regarding cutting off procedure, yes some of us have walks where if we do the scheduled indoor work, we need to go over even on a "quiet Tuesday" without the scheduled WTLL session taking place. We are not talking of the odd 10 minutes or so here, more like >60mins o/t to complete which threatens to be further extended by going over a 9 hour day.

I don't memorise the dimensions of every letterbox on my delivery, so besides signature items (SDs, Recorded Signed Fors, some Tracked), I don't know for certain how many of the myriad of parcels are attendance call parcels.

I cannot be sure how long each attendance call will take, will someone open the door after 10 seconds, or when I've virtually filled out the p739? Or will nobody answer within a 60 seconds of knocking?

I cannot be sure how long the neighbour is going to take to answer the door, how long it takes to explain the parcel is for someone else and get them to sign the PDA if required, they might even not answer the door (by choice, or nobody is home).

I'm dealing with at least 2 sacks of parcels daily, even now in the "quiet summer period," containing ~75+ parcels. No doubt very commonplace.

My total attendance call rate (for large parcels; SDs; Recorded; signature Tracked) is typically a damn sight higher than the intended 19 calls per 500 delivery points.

If I had tried a neighbour for each p739ed parcel today, I would have been out there for an extra ~25mins more o/t. But what if I wanted to finish "bang on time" as per my right? I could easily end up going over, or get back too early, simply due to the attendance call parcel lottery.

[Jamesethefirst]

Give us the time to complete our deliveries using correct equipment and we may consider delivery to a neighbour but whilst we are still expected to do a 5 hour delivery in 4 hours 30 mins due to a failed revision for the 2nd time then I personally wont be leaving any at any neighbours. And I cannot believe they have to put in an agreement that if we extend due to this overtime will be paid which I assume means this has caused issues in the past.

If you read it again, it doesn't specify you will be paid overtime,but that the time will be as per local arrangements , to paraphrase slightly. Which means flexibility,in all probability.

[steve1873]

All this does is muddy the water further regarding cutting off procedure, yes some of us have walks where if we do the scheduled indoor work, we need to go over even on a "quiet Tuesday" without the scheduled WTLL session taking place. We are not talking of the odd 10 minutes or so here, more like >60mins o/t to complete which threatens to be further extended by going over a 9 hour day.

I don't memorise the dimensions of every letterbox on my delivery, so besides signature items (SDs, Recorded Signed Fors, some Tracked), I don't know for certain how many of the myriad of parcels are attendance call parcels.

I cannot be sure how long each attendance call will take, will someone open the door after 10 seconds, or when I've virtually filled out the p739? Or will nobody answer within a 60 seconds of knocking?

I cannot be sure how long the neighbour is going to take to answer the door, how long it takes to explain the parcel is for someone else and get them to sign the PDA if required, they might even not answer the door (by choice, or nobody is home).

I'm dealing with at least 2 sacks of parcels daily, even now in the "quiet summer period," containing ~75+ parcels. No doubt very commonplace.

My total attendance call rate (for large parcels; SDs; Recorded; signature Tracked) is typically a damn sight higher than the intended 19 calls per 500 delivery points.

If I had tried a neighbour for each p739ed parcel today, I would have been out there for an extra ~25mins more o/t. But what if I wanted to finish "bang on time" as per my right? I could easily end up going over, or get back too early, simply due to the attendance call parcel lottery.

This is a great post and someone in a senior position within the union needs to answer these issues, because all this does is leave the members even more vulnerable than previously!

[justdeno]

I sometimes DTN, the usual people. The neighbours are now getting fed up with this and have said so. This is only going to be the norm and neighbours will start to refuse the Ebay kings, then what do we do? Ask Moya?

[steve1873]

I sometimes DTN, the usual people. The neighbours are now getting fed up with this and have said so. This is only going to be the norm and neighbours will start to refuse the Ebay kings, then what do we do? Ask Moya?

Correct, I have said this to my p&l partner numerous times. If I was retired or home during the day every day and was getting chapled every single day to take the usual suspects parcels I would get very, very annoyed. Unsolicted phonecalls are an annoyance - unsolicited chaps on the door are far worse imo.

[billysboots1]

I sometimes DTN, the usual people. The neighbours are now getting fed up with this and have said so. This is only going to be the norm and neighbours will start to refuse the Ebay kings, then what do we do? Ask Moya?

to answer your question if you go over your time by getting first time delivery you will be paid the new pdas which are coming along with service view will be monitering your every step and can be recalled to prove that you chapped the neighbours doors to get the delivery done as a safe guard just write down the the recipients address and the doors you knocked to get the parcel delivered first time fill your pockets if there was no overtime you would be crying the union is looking after its members intrests to sustain your jobs if you dont want to do it just finish on your time but when the jobs start going dont blame the union its down to us to beat the competition before they beat us

[Martin Walsh]

TBT the union liaises with reps , branches and members on a very regular basis. Our reps are in offices every days unlike anyother union. Contrary to some on here the union does good things for the members on a daily basis whether it's representing a member and preventing that members from being dismissed or winning an appeal , or winning an accident claim , giving some distressed relative some money as a result of the loss of a loved one. The list is countless.

On industrial matters let's be clear here the union is all that stands in the way of Royal Mail running riot on your terms and conditions but headquarters are not a police force they empower Branch's and local reps to ensure that they carry out the terms of the national agreements.

Let's be clear here , if you have agreed a model week in your office which means that in the summer you cannot laspe otherwise you go over your time then only two things could have hapoened you either have more work then you had when you had a revision or you agreed a model week which was wrong. Now this is a local issue where you can ask for a review and the agreement allows you to do that.

Now if your in an area where you have seen Amazon start delivering there own parcels and they started in Brighton on Sunday last week then you will see the ammount of parcels from Amazon decline.. They are Royal Mails biggest parcels company and Royal Mail have seen Amazon parcels decline by 30% on the same period as last year but the strategy from Amazon is to target the cities so in places like Croydon , Bromley and South East London it's is down 82%.

Now the USO survives on the basis of cross subsidy so whilst in the cities the deliver of items is cheaper as it is with a built up area and lots of items go to one addrsses this allows Royal Mail to deliver to towns and rural areas where it's is far more expensive to deliver. It does not take a genius to realise if Royal Mail is losing traffic parcels , letters and revenue in the cities then the cost of providing a USO at the same price increases.

Royal Mail according to independent auditors have already lost 14% of all delivery work to TNT and that is in only 3 cities. Royal Mail have said that they believe that the figure which they would no longer be able to sustain a USO on is 30%. TNT are due in Birmingham , East and South East London , Edinburgh , Glasgow and Bristol before the year is out. Now if the USO is too go the cities will still get two deliveries per day one from TNT and one from Royal Mail but the towns and rurals may only get 1 or two deliveries per week.

TBT you suggest that the CWU does not listen to the members well I think we do members want a safe job , with good terms and conditions and not be bullied and work safe.

But members need to realise and most do that Royal Mail are in a vastly different postion then when most joined. We have competition , we have shareholders and we have a regulator who is not listening.

Now let's address Delivery to Neighbour only 1% of addresses have opted out of Delivery to Neighbour. All the othet parcel companies use Delivery to Neighbour and companies like yodel and Hermes only pay on successful delivery to their self employed drivers who get between 20 pence and £1.20 per drop.

Royal Mail first time delivery rate stands at 88% compared to the industry average of 98% a 10% increase is not earth shattering.

Now I have worked and represented delivery members for 29 years and they are unique not only in Royal Mail but in any othet industry in that more work is met with groans and moans. Now I accept that the way the extra work is done may be an issue but unlike a factory or a car plant when they win a new order they see it secures them jobs delivery staff don't and many have existed on the back of trying to gain time. That industry no longer exists and any work which means it will take more time into your duty has to be seen as good. Now if that means your duty goes over or you have to amend your absorption plan then so be it and raise it with your rep and he can take it via the framework.

The bottom line Amazon .Asos and others want to use those companies who deliver first time and that includes D2N and they are the big customers who will pay Royal Mail who then pay our wages. Now let's thing also for years we deliveed bills , credit cards , council tax when the customer probably were not bothered when they received them , now customers who order things on line want them delivered as quickly as possible first time.

Now some on here may want to bury their heads in the sand and look at their own delivery and say nothings changed. Can I suggest you go to say an office in Manchester , Liverpool or London and see what the loss of Amazon and the effect from TNT are like most offices have lost 24% of their traffic in less then a year. Royal Mail is not an Island and if the work has gone in these cities the revenue the future of the whole of the USO is in jeopardy. There is a meeting of Manchester , Liverpool and London Reps and Branches later toddy at Wimbledon to discuss the crisis.

So is the CWU wrong trying to secure more parcels in a competive market when suppliers are demanding such things as Delivery To Neigbour or do we say that some who post here think it's asking too much

[steve1873]

You make it sound as if the USO is something that Royal Mail can do away with on a commercial basis! As far as I was aware, the only thing that could withdraw the USO would be an act of parliament. Do you think our competitors would like the USO done away with and have to compete with Royal Mail on a 100% even basis?

[steve1873]

Simple question Dingo - all I require is a yes/ no answer...

Will deliver first time take the persons on delivery longer than otherwise would be the case? Bare in mind Inhave already posted a set of figures (conservative ones at that) that you seem to have ignored and maintain the ridiculous, nonsensical viewpoint that it would take no longer, or make the difficulty of judging the workload for any given day even more hazardous for the OPG.

[steve1873]

No the CWU and Royal Mail could not possiby turn work away whether that be parcels, door-to-doors or any other work. The point here is, our whole way of working was changed - parcel deliveries were removed from offices to enable park and loop. So now pretty much every OPG has seen their attendance calls increase exponentially - now we are being told that we pretty much have to deliver items to neighbours, therefore increasimg the delivery element by potentially as much as an hour per day, yet are being told not only by management, but by our own union that it doesn't take any longer.

How can the potential doubling of every attendance call not take any longer? Are we bending the laws of physics here?

[chrisj]

I do not know about dingo's offices but I have much doubt that folks in my office will leave a parcel in the office in the morning before going out. Our PHGs will not have it - they already have a bit of a dig when we return quite a lot of parcels especially on a Wednesday...

What exactly is a P739 complaint? Customer is not in and a card is left for them - what is the complaint? Oh, they want me to try neighbours! Why don't they just say that or leave a note so that is very clear...

There are some areas where the next neighbour is at least 3 minutes away - since bikes have been removed and we now have to walk everywhere. So, I try a neighbour or couple and then return back to the original address and that does not add any more time?

Wow, dingo should really try delivery for a week or so - and not in London, mind! We have MPS giving it a go - why not our Union bosses; so that way they can say that they know for sure that it does not add any more time to delivery - not pilots and hearsays...

My manager actually does not give a hoot about neighbour's delivery, perhaps because we are a semi-rural office where the distances between houses on some walks are not close and in some cases we have urban areas with yuppies in flats and there is hardly anyone in to take items - they do not even empty their letter boxes for days..

All these talk about saving jobs and competition - the area of competition is not in first time delivery or trying to match the cowboys. If RM wants a dedicated parcel service to rival the cowboys then they should stick with Parcel Force and try to improve and compete from there.

RM is living in the past with idea that there are neighbours about that do not have anything to do but to take parcels for each other. People actually work these days!

[TrueBlueTerrier]

TBT the union liaises with reps , branches and members on a very regular basis. Our reps are in offices every days unlike anyother union. Contrary to some on here the union does good things for the members on a daily basis whether it's representing a member and preventing that members from being dismissed or winning an appeal , or winning an accident claim , giving some distressed relative some money as a result of the loss of a loved one. The list is countless.

On industrial matters let's be clear here the union is all that stands in the way of Royal Mail running riot on your terms and conditions but headquarters are not a police force they empower Branch's and local reps to ensure that they carry out the terms of the national agreements.

Let's be clear here , if you have agreed a model week in your office which means that in the summer you cannot laspe otherwise you go over your time then only two things could have hapoened you either have more work then you had when you had a revision or you agreed a model week which was wrong. Now this is a local issue where you can ask for a review and the agreement allows you to do that.

Now if your in an area where you have seen Amazon start delivering there own parcels and they started in Brighton on Sunday last week then you will see the ammount of parcels from Amazon decline.. They are Royal Mails biggest parcels company and Royal Mail have seen Amazon parcels decline by 30% on the same period as last year but the strategy from Amazon is to target the cities so in places like Croydon , Bromley and South East London it's is down 82%.

Now the USO survives on the basis of cross subsidy so whilst in the cities the deliver of items is cheaper as it is with a built up area and lots of items go to one addrsses this allows Royal Mail to deliver to towns and rural areas where it's is far more expensive to deliver. It does not take a genius to realise if Royal Mail is losing traffic parcels , letters and revenue in the cities then the cost of providing a USO at the same price increases.

Royal Mail according to independent auditors have already lost 14% of all delivery work to TNT and that is in only 3 cities. Royal Mail have said that they believe that the figure which they would no longer be able to sustain a USO on is 30%. TNT are due in Birmingham , East and South East London , Edinburgh , Glasgow and Bristol before the year is out. Now if the USO is too go the cities will still get two deliveries per day one from TNT and one from Royal Mail but the towns and rurals may only get 1 or two deliveries per week.

TBT you suggest that the CWU does not listen to the members well I think we do members want a safe job , with good terms and conditions and not be bullied and work safe.

But members need to realise and most do that Royal Mail are in a vastly different postion then when most joined. We have competition , we have shareholders and we have a regulator who is not listening.

Now let's address Delivery to Neighbour only 1% of addresses have opted out of Delivery to Neighbour. All the othet parcel companies use Delivery to Neighbour and companies like yodel and Hermes only pay on successful delivery to their self employed drivers who get between 20 pence and £1.20 per drop.

Royal Mail first time delivery rate stands at 88% compared to the industry average of 98% a 10% increase is not earth shattering.

Now I have worked and represented delivery members for 29 years and they are unique not only in Royal Mail but in any othet industry in that more work is met with groans and moans. Now I accept that the way the extra work is done may be an issue but unlike a factory or a car plant when they win a new order they see it secures them jobs delivery staff don't and many have existed on the back of trying to gain time. That industry no longer exists and any work which means it will take more time into your duty has to be seen as good. Now if that means your duty goes over or you have to amend your absorption plan then so be it and raise it with your rep and he can take it via the framework.

The bottom line Amazon .Asos and others want to use those companies who deliver first time and that includes D2N and they are the big customers who will pay Royal Mail who then pay our wages. Now let's thing also for years we deliveed bills , credit cards , council tax when the customer probably were not bothered when they received them , now customers who order things on line want them delivered as quickly as possible first time.

Now some on here may want to bury their heads in the sand and look at their own delivery and say nothings changed. Can I suggest you go to say an office in Manchester , Liverpool or London and see what the loss of Amazon and the effect from TNT are like most offices have lost 24% of their traffic in less then a year. Royal Mail is not an Island and if the work has gone in these cities the revenue the future of the whole of the USO is in jeopardy. There is a meeting of Manchester , Liverpool and London Reps and Branches later toddy at Wimbledon to discuss the crisis.

So is the CWU wrong trying to secure more parcels in a competive market when suppliers are demanding such things as Delivery To Neigbour or do we say that some who post here think it's asking too much

But you have missed my point and wants more worrying you are accusing some members of burying the heads in the sand. We don't want the Union TELLING us whats best for us. We want the union ASKING us what our problems are. We may not like the outcome but at least we will feel as though we have been consulted. We pay the subs, we should at least have our concerns addressed.

While I am at it, and this is nor an attack on you personally, though you may think it is, others are guilty of the same thing, but repeating facts and figures when people are questioning the Union is counterproductive it as though they think we don't understand, but if they say it often enough we'll give up and go away.

A classic example is this Delivery to A neighbour and the Union agreeing it takes no more time to do than delivering to the original address. I'll agree overall during a normal/average working day it may not cause duties to extend/cut off but because of the poor wording from the Union unscrupulous managers are saying that attendance time for DTN is no greater, therefore there is no reason to extend or cut off on heavy packet days. Now in strong offices with good Union reps you can fight that. But in an office where its the reps day off, or the Area rep is 20 miles away, even the strongest member can buckle for an easy life and extend without being paid for it.

That's what the members face every day in offices up and down the country, and I am sorry the Union is not looking after members interests in less well represented areas, in fact in some areas "jobs for the boys" seems to the main concern. Luckily I think my unit is pretty well represented both locally and by the ADR, and I personally don't have these problems, some in my office do. In other offices where the Union is weak or badly represented we need to help them more than offices like mine, and until the Union comes up with a strategy to help them then the culture of bullying is not going to change, and if managements culture is not going to change how do you expect the workers to get on board with the "can do" attitude.