North London Delivery revisions

[chrisj]

I don't know what it is like in Hull - I have been before btw...

But, just assume your office walking out over last minute 'lapsing' because that is what we have in some offices now. Then compare a London office in the hub of the Capital city walking out... The damage for businesses and customers and the bad press for RM will be massive. That is one of the main differences; and London crew knows that and have been playing on that for many many years.

Resourcing to workload has now gone into overdrive even before we sign the agreement - to be fair; that was part of BT2010... But today, we were asked to lapse almost halfway into indoor work: traffic is low so we are lapsing...

And we did - yes, we all mostly finished within the contracted hours but that will not happen in some offices... We were told we shall be lapsing on Mondays, Tuesdays and Saturdays but that changed just because - and yet, we had enough staff to get by without the lapsing

[stephenb19578]

You are missing the point. (or maybe I don't get the point across - my apologies)
The point being ; that if London can get the deal that they want , then why can't others. Are London stronger or are other areas weaker?

London got the deal they got because nobody can come up with a cost effective way of dealing with the surplus.
Nothing to do with strength. Nothing to do with good reps. Nothing to do with unity.

Imagine if they had good reps then..What i see on the original post is not gloating.Those 22 offices from one area have got deals from the same agreement we all went into. Why knock them? Isn't our motto 'unity is strength'?Clearly they have a bond down there and other areas could learn from that.

[Weetrogg2]

It seems to me that better revisions could be achieved across the country if members and Rep's were willing to take a hard line, sometimes that means taking a hard line with area and division (the div rep is payed by the business, this needs to end) I am not saying the union is perfect, far from it. Ultimately in large parts of the country the membership are unwillingly to accept they work till 2.48, at my office peoples solution is to come in early, don't take a break and run around like knobs, then the dom wants to lapse more cos people are handing in their key's at 13.00. Don't get me wrong this union needs major reform I.e. Rep's should only be able to remain in position for a fixed term then they should return to duty (their quite a long list of reforms id like to see) but in the past this union was strong because of its members participation and their willingness to stang together, now it appears we will put up with any old s**t!!

[Budfrog]

You are missing the point. (or maybe I don't get the point across - my apologies)
The point being ; that if London can get the deal that they want , then why can't others. Are London stronger or are other areas weaker?

London got the deal they got because nobody can come up with a cost effective way of dealing with the surplus.
Nothing to do with strength. Nothing to do with good reps. Nothing to do with unity.

Agree - but if you take the range of EPs nationally it is really quite absurd (probably 60-110ish meaning some units are required to work nearly TWICE as hard as others).

Of course there are a lot of smokescreens that RM could remove to give a truer picture of what EPs units are actually achieving by using the actual attendance hours - not difficult to do but of course a DSM/DOM gets more brownie points for high EPs so where is the incentive. The problem is that this mis-reporting of EP totally screws up the planning process ... and places unrealistic targets on units. The ring-fencing of surplus staff in some London units would provide a notional picture of EP targets that are better aligned with the rest of the country and maybe the reporting process needs to encompass end state staffing levels as well as current, assuming of course that RM doesn't intend to carry these staff forever. I've always believed that RM's lack of control systems that are fit for purpose has been the main reason why such a diverse range of targets exist by office/region/function but at the end of the day every OPGs should be targetted at the same level ... and if they are not someone needs to try and explain to me why not !!

[chrisj]

Don't feel bitter ; just adopt the same approach

Only if you can convince the business to adopt the same approach with the rest of the country as it does with London.

It is too late for many offices to adopt the same approach - even if they are united as a unit, areas, town/city and branch/region... There is no way an employer especially one that is now a Private company will allow a unit that is already performing at a high standard to drop down - no chance! Even if the employees stay out for weeks and months...

Now when we talk about Unity and Strength - do you really think the rest of the country (London including) will all support a unit in Hull that is trying it on with performance levels?

London is small and concentrated as a Branch/Region so it is easier to mobilise and stick together. Using the Hull example, which other Units/Areas will they cobble together if one unit in Hull has problems? The whole of Humberside and Yorkshire? Just imagine the distances between the offices - and they will still have less units and/or impact than London

We should not be having this 'Unity' thing based on branches, it should be based on the whole collective. That is why we have collective bargaining...

It appears the people that makes most of the decisions are also the ones best placed to exploit things - it is all about local units now but then London operates as a Mafia/Collective so they are always going to be better placed than some unit stuck in the other side Humberside or Kingston Upon Hull e.g.

We even have a threat to Royal Mail from the dingo that if they pick on one unit they have to deal with all of them... I suppose that might include Middx. Essex, Herts and some parts of Surrey as well??? Clearly we now have a divided Union!

[fishtank]

It is too late for many offices to adopt the same approach - even if they are united as a unit, areas, town/city and branch/region... There is no way an employer especially one that is now a Private company will allow a unit that is already performing at a high standard to drop down - no chance! Even if the employees stay out for weeks and months...

Exactly chris and the fact that the majority of the rest of the country was currently performing above 85EP before BT2010 was even negotiated was already known by the union so all this talk of manning up, sticking together, getting the best out of agreements and solidarity was just complete and utter bullshit.

Most of these units outside London were condemned by the agreement before they even started, condemned ironically by their own efficiency because there could only be one type of winner from a revision whose starting point had to be at least matching current performance and that's an inefficient, overstaffed one.
Three cheers for Bob Gibson and his waving useless bits of paper about.

The next f**k over will no doubt be with the incentive scheme because if it's based on lapsing/savings opportunities which office is going to scoop the most wonga, An office "working" at 66EP with probably enough time to absorb a duty each or an office at 95EP with virtually no opportunity left to lapse at all?

[chrisj]

Well well... We just have to make the best of things and try not to get too wound up by some lucky ones...

It is still a good job and the agreement is not 'slave's' agreement - as long as the units try and be more unified and work to their contractual hours.

Sadly some will not be able to keep up going forward but hopefully they will be well compensated if and when...

The other thing is that people need to have better understanding of the agreement and know what they can get away with and what they cannot because just following the advice from the likes of dingo might get some unit reps in some remote place with incompetent areas and div rep into serious trouble. We have see a number of reps being targeted or in trouble even before we sign away this 'no' national-strike deal.

[chrisj]

The other thing is that if dingo is as influential on the setting of the EP as he claims to be, then why is N6 working at 92.5EP when others can get away with an average of 80EP.

As you said, it is about your base. The others like 66EP most have been working at very low levels before their revision.

[Budfrog]

The next f**k over will no doubt be with the incentive scheme because if it's based on lapsing/savings opportunities which office is going to scoop the most wonga, An office "working" at 66EP with probably enough time to absorb a duty each or an office at 95EP with virtually no opportunity left to lapse at all?

Exactly - RM won't want to pay a penny unless they gain an efficiency improvement from everyone.

[Martin Walsh]

It's really is disturbing that Chris and Mother Hubbard think the answer is too attack London and myself included. Your comments say more about you then they say about me.

Mother get the chip off your shoulder. London got the highest yes votes in the country. London has had VRs and So has North London.

We adopted the fact that the CWU had not agreed to 100bsi and therefore it was about agreeing a reasonable improvement in the indoor performance of the offices. some offices in London agreed an improvement of 10% was a move which the office could continue to ensure walks worked and office cleared without people having to cut off or work beyond their time.

Some offices in London have agreed a move of 15 points but no one has agreed to more than this. As it is madness that an office who is say at 70 EP on a Friday can suddenly clear the office on the Monday at 100bsi.

If we are honest a lot of offices who claim that they are working at 100 are not. As all the hours of people who come in before their time are not included as this would drop your EP. Equally the reason why most claim protracted overtime or work beyond their time is that they do not get out on delivery on time so really the problem is indoors but the hours are paid outdoors.

See I have listed factual offices and I could list a load more from other parts of London. We have high performing offices as well as lower performing offices. But no one has to agree an unrealistic target for their offices.

The London membership or reps do not deserve some of the comments which have been aimed at them.

There are numerous other offices who do not work at 100 and this is one of the reasons why the upper decile has been parked by Royal Mail as when they try to compare offices like for like they realised some of those who are claimed to be upper decile were using a lot more hours then was being recorded including managers being used.

Some of you are easy on one hand to complain about Royal Mail being bullies but behind the safety of your keyboard and the safety of being anonymous your happy to attack anyone who might have a different view from you.

It is water off a ducks back to me but its little wonder why a lot of posters no longer post on this site as it seems unless your anti CWU HQs , anti divisional reps , anti Branch , anti area rep , anti processing , anti drivers , anti London your not welcome and your free to be attacked. Is that what this site has come too ?

I posted this as a debate some wanted this reported to Moya Greene. What's all that about.

Chris keep up the personal attacks it must make you very proud.

Mother if you want a debate about London , well let's have a debate about what your branch or region is ! But saying London is the enemy is sad and a lie.

[fishtank]

I posted this as a debate some wanted this reported to Moya Greene. What's all that about.

I think a part-time member has the right to question why they can't get a full-time contract sitting in an office in Hull with an EP of 100 and no indoor work when if they were sitting in an office in North London with an EP of 65-70 and bucket loads of indoor "work" it would be no problem.

It would be preferable if they could get a straight answer from the union but nobody in the union really gives a s**t and Bob would probably blame the rep so.....the obvious next step would be to ask Royal Mail themselves.
Can anyone really explain the difference without spouting bollocks about strong members etc?
I mean the jobs practically the same in both offices isn't it?

[BernardBresslaw]

Dingo, what was your motivation in starting this thread? You must have realised beforehand what problems it would cause? All you've done is reinforce the fact that the union is rapidly becoming fragmented.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

The other thing is that if dingo is as influential on the setting of the EP as he claims to be, then why is N6 working at 92.5EP when others can get away with an average of 80EP.

others are not getting away with lower rates, quite simply reps agreed to these higher rates in their offices when they did not need to, people moan that others are having it better, well in reality the other areas are not getting special treatment just they read the agreements and only agreed to what they had to agree to on them, you cant blame london or other areas its not their fault that reps in other areas agreed to higher rates

[chrisj]

Your quotation of my post and your reply does not correlate. Especially that bit that you have quoted...

[Martin Walsh]

Fish my understanding is that a lot of North East decided to agree to an higher indoor EP some 100 as they believed when the upper decile came they would get more full time jobs.

I do believe they did get some part timers a full time job. However recent figures in the North East has shown that they have over 50% part timers. However if you do agree a higher EP then if a full timer leaves or gets dismissed then a part time normally stands a better chance of getting a full time job.

Whereas if your in a lower EP office when a full timer leaves then a part time normally comes in.

The real issue is that performance in delivery offices is based on a system which most DOMs do not understand and actual hours worked are not recorded which gives a total false reading.

Most senior managers and reps say when the work is available there is no difference in a postmens performance , the issue is to whether the work is there at the available time or wether there is enough work for the hours.