Royal Mail agreement presented to reps

[dvbuk55]

Which part of the agreement, any in particular? because as it stands we don't know how the new agreement deals with deliveries new and improved efficiencies in the new can do culture - will that be explained prior to the ballot or after.

How would the now embedded CWU go about reneging on the deal and calling a strike and would that be with or without cheap legal advice.

[Pat Ostman]

when the CWU asked for people to report bullying they got just over. 1000 responses . Far too many and something needed to be done but let's be clear there are 115 thousand delivery employees.

Let's be clear huh? The vast majority of people suffer in silence. Your 115 thousand comment really does sound like it could come from the mouth of RM and not an upper CWU representative.

Very embedded to say the least.

[dvbuk55]

when the CWU asked for people to report bullying they got just over. 1000 responses . Far too many and something needed to be done but let's be clear there are 115 thousand delivery employees.

Let's be clear huh? The vast majority of people suffer in silence. Your 115 thousand comment really does sound like it could come from the mouth of RM and not an upper CWU representative.

Very embedded to say the least.

No worries though because they'll be looking at that in depth next year after the ballot of course and if there's no resolution - well without any available sanction what's the CWU going to do about it?

[Rumple]

Excellent post fish tank. Union (who I am a devout follower) are saying Royal Mail said 'x' and we put a stop to that. I have never seen evidence of 'preventing x'

[General Mannerheim]

when the CWU asked for people to report bullying they got just over. 1000 responses . Far too many and something needed to be done but let's be clear there are 115 thousand delivery employees.

Let's be clear huh? The vast majority of people suffer in silence. Your 115 thousand comment really does sound like it could come from the mouth of RM and not an upper CWU representative.

Very embedded to say the least.

No worries though because they'll be looking at that in depth next year after the ballot of course and if there's no resolution - well without any available sanction what's the CWU going to do about it?

Well they will probably give you a card in THE VOICE that you can wave threateningly at your bully or better still get your over worked rep to send the bully a strongly worded pamphlet.

[mark02]

what the hell are local strikes going to do? We are a union not a local union! This is a no strike deal without a doubt! Our power as a union is to strike as one then we shut the whole operation down nationally! Local strikes are like a sneeze where as a all out national strike is like pneumonia! I urge all union members to vote against this deal as at local level we will be hung out to dry by high up union chiefs why dont have the stomach for the fight & want us to do all their dirty work! Workload issues have been horribly unsolved also. I dread this deal getting voted in i really do! I wonder how billy & dave would feel about this deal if they had to go out on a P&L duty tomorrow together???????????? Disgrace! VOTE NO.

It will be voted in............ THATS A FACT , so just accept it and stop crying. You get well paid for what you do!

[dvbuk55]

what the hell are local strikes going to do? We are a union not a local union! This is a no strike deal without a doubt! Our power as a union is to strike as one then we shut the whole operation down nationally! Local strikes are like a sneeze where as a all out national strike is like pneumonia! I urge all union members to vote against this deal as at local level we will be hung out to dry by high up union chiefs why dont have the stomach for the fight & want us to do all their dirty work! Workload issues have been horribly unsolved also. I dread this deal getting voted in i really do! I wonder how billy & dave would feel about this deal if they had to go out on a P&L duty tomorrow together???????????? Disgrace! VOTE NO.

It will be voted in............ THATS A FACT , so just accept it and stop crying. You get well paid for what you do!

Well you haven't been on here long enough to see the history behind the last sell out of an agreement and to see the similarities to the proposed sell out this time even to the disgruntled voice of the SWP at the Reps Briefing according to one well known source. That disgruntled voice proved to be correct last time and will undoubtedly be proven right this time. As for pay, well it's not a mitigating factor for selling out your members.

[RTP]

let's be clear if this agreement is not work then what is stopping us balloting ?

The fact that no member in their right mind is going to vote for strike action if it opens the door to franchising,zero hour contracts or a two tier workforce and therefore no union is going to gamble against those kind of odds and what that ultimately means is that as long as those basic protections remain in place it really doesn't matter what Royal Mail do as far as deliveries and pay are concerned the union has little choice but to toe the line.

What we have is a legally binding agreement that's not really very binding on the employer at all.
Let's get down to the detail of the legally binding parts.What sanctions will Royal Mail actually face if it breaches the agreement just a little here and a little there?, It would be playing right into their hands to call a strike and make life easy for them so do we take the legal route..yes?
Say the union runs to court, somehow manages to find a friendly face in the judicial system and obtains an injunction,what then if Royal Mail just continues to flout the agreement?

Is the union really going to sue Royal Mail for breach of contract?, do you know exactly what that involves and how difficult that is to win and even if by some miracle the union did win what would they seek after a long and expensive court battle...punitive damages against or own employer?
That works as a job creation scheme.

Some have been seduced by the mention of lawyers without the slightest bit of knowledge as to how the legal system works. Royal Mail's legal team must be pissing themselves at our niavety....legally binding my arse.

Fish I agree with a lot of what you post, but in this instance I think consideration needs to be given to what the actual threat of court proceedings would do. What it would almost certainly do is affect the share price. How little or how much is debatable, but it's bound to have some impact and surely that's something that RM would want to avoid, just as they wanted to avoid strike action this time around as it could have meant the loss of business both in the short and long term. The union has a duty to protect jobs and they also knew that a strike could have meant to us all. It's a tough call and time will tell whether they made the right call.

Now dingo I also agree with a lot of what you say, but what I don't like is your attitude that blames certain branches and in particular IR reps. It's a "we're all right jack" attitude down here in London, because we stick to the agreements, stick together and have good reps down here. I'm sure your not alone and there are others places in the country where their job is just a stroll in the sunshine. There will be others where the job is bob on with the correct hours aligned to a fair workload, but there's also a large percentage of union members who have unfair workloads and are under pressure. It's all very well and good people coming on here and saying "just work your hours", but there is also a large percentage of conscientious postmen and women out there who don't want to let the customers down and feel obliged to deliver all the mail they're tasked to deliver and some who feel intimidated in one way or another to deliver that mail. As a union it should not be about the few, it should be about the whole, where everybody is treated equal. Perhaps instead of blaming certain sections of the union you and others should be looking yourselves in the mirror and asking "how can we do more to create a level playing field". Do you think it's fair that we're told to sign up to a previous agreement that said ' work all the hours you're paid for ' and yet some areas clearly aren't, because they're strong and the so called weak parts of the union have to carry the can? You should be doing more and have the argument that revisiting revisions will initially come at a cost, but in the long term it will make the company run smoother, create a happier more motivated workforce, who are more willing to go that extra mile. And if it means those areas have to work their full hours, then they can cry all they like. That's what they're paid to do, that's what we were advised to sign up to.

The union does so much right and I tend to agree that we where right not to strike. I'm glad they got together with RM and tried to work in the best interests of us all, but they could still do so much more. Hopefully this knew IR framework will help, rather than disagreements just being swept under the carpet. The disagreements are there for a reason. They may not all make a difference and some may be lame, but they need hearing never the less, because a lot of them are there not just because they may benefit the members, but also the business.

You mentioned absorbing again before and how it wont go away, because RM can make so much savings from it. Tell me, has there ever been a proper survey done on the facts to support this theory that it makes so much in savings? Have sick levels jumped since it was introduced? Have more members been sacked due to reasons surrounding absorbing? If so has the cost of appeals, getting cover for managers and reps to attend appeals and fact findings been taken into account along with the cost of covering duties while a member is on sick or on suspension? What about all the travel costs involved?

The job has got harder, there's no doubt about that. Before absorbing postmen and women used to look forward to the summer, because it gave their bodies a chance to recover somewhat, but the job is getting harder, we have to work longer before retiring and for some the strains on the body are already starting to have or have had an effect. Have you looked into what IHR is costing?

What about deliver to neighbour into workload? You should be pushing and pushing for this. After all 'we love parcels'. Have the argument for god sake. The better and more professional as a business RM becomes the more it will benefit us all, but some of us need the time to do the job properly.

[janitor]

so wich agreement in this contract can RM be in breach of, as yet they have agreed to nothing, its no good running to court saying RM have breached the deliveries agreement, because there is no agreement on deliveries, they have promised nothing in this agreement, and as i said if the CWU call a strike it will play into RMs hands. The union had a strike mandate, it had christmas on the horizon, and it blew it for this. Words nothing but words RM can't be in breach of the agreements they haven't made one.

[fishtank]

Fish I agree with a lot of what you post, but in this instance I think consideration needs to be given to what the actual threat of court proceedings would do. What it would almost certainly do is affect the share price. How little or how much is debatable, but it's bound to have some impact and surely that's something that RM would want to avoid.

A lot is made of the share price,In all honesty far too much,Price fluctuations are a daily occurrence on the stock market and I seriously doubt an internal legal squabble that would have no real consequences on the business's ability to trade would have any real impact on the share price,after all the threat of industrial action and subsequent withdrawal of that threat made not a jot of difference to the trading position.

In order to affect the share price there would have to be some kind of serious sanction at the end of legal proceedings and in all reality there can't be because even in the unlikely event of the CWU winning there would be only two possible outcomes,a return to the status quo or a return to the status quo with financial penalties and who in their right mind wants their own employer to face financial penalties?

That would be shooting ourselves in the foot so the reality is Royal Mail have nothing to lose by breaching the agreement other than the legal bill...whereas we have everything to lose.As pointed out on another thread the whole thing comes down to trust but with very high stakes and no plan B.

[tompa]

Dingo
two ballot papers were issued this year the first was the consultation ballot in July the second is the one your referring to about pay, pensions and work place issues. Far as im concerned one leads into the other. Since you mention what we voted on last can you tell me why out of the three points pay ,pension and work place issues have the union only delt with one. Pensions and delivery issues have been took out of this deal and for pay 0.4 is not GROUND BREAKING IS IT.
As for the consultation ballot 74% turnout and the union asked its members four questions.
1. Do you support the privatisation of rm 96% voted yes
2. Do you support boycott of competitors mail 92%voted yes
3. Do you support Cwu pay claim 99% voted yes
4. Do you support the policy of none cooperation 92%voted yes.
These issues lead into the final vote for industrial action and on there own merits should be delt with.
As for your other points pay was already good.
And you no and i no legal protection royal mail can get out anytime with exceptional circumstances and as for individual performances the words i used are this agreement Will lead into individual performances under the word efficiency, productivity and can do culture. But im more then happy for you to put your neck on the line and say this Will never happen??
As for poor reps and bad offices i can only talk for myself but been a rep for 10 year and still here cleaning the mess of the last two national agreement.

[dvbuk55]

I must admit I feel totally frustrated, the saying goes that a man cannot be deceived if he knows he is being deceived, however knowing that and being able to effectively counter that deception is not a happy situation.

[BernardBresslaw]

Well that clears it up this is a good agreement for the Union as an organisation, its a pity that most of the concerns of delivery members are being dealt with later.

The fact that dingo blindly ignores any post mentioning these issues speaks volumes. Unless I see an attempt to address them, it's a big fat no vote from me.

[Martin Walsh]

Well that clears it up this is a good agreement for the Union as an organisation, its a pity that most of the concerns of delivery members are being dealt with later.

The fact that dingo blindly ignores any post mentioning these issues speaks volumes. Unless I see an attempt to address them, it's a big fat no vote from me.

I have mentioned deliveries quite a bit actually.

1. There is a review of how postal workers are coping with the change in the mix of Mail.

2. There is review of whether the productivity and targets are achievable and realistic.

3. There is a review of the workplan.

4. There is a commitment that deliveries will remain mainly full times on roughly the same levels as now.

5. There is going to be a review completed by May of what is happening in deliveries? This will include a survey of delivery members , a joint audit of 60 delivery offices across the UK. The review will see what has happened in terms of BT revision , how resourcing is done , is there bullying practices going on , are methods being used etc. This will then trigger negotiations on ensuring there is an interim agreement addressing the issues in delivery.

6. There will be a roll out in every delivery office the fairness dignity and respect joint statement which is planned to stop bullying in the workplace.

7. There will be discussions on incentive schemes. When the Pay and Mod resourcing agreement was agreed money was given to staff based on the then 50/50 scheme from any savings made including absorption.

8 Customer requirements are changing , parcels are growing yet Royal Mail have less than 25% of the market. TNT are setting up an alternative end to end service current experience in London is that they will take between 5 and 10% of your delivery office Mail and Mail centres will lose the work completely. This is why there has to be a new delivery model and therefore there are a number of strands set up which will review such things as safety , fatigue , resourcing to workload , performance , productivity. The outcome of these strands will influence a longer term agreement on deliveries.

In addition as I said to before management did want to introduce annualised hours into deliveries so people would work longer hours when the traffic is at its highest and lower hours when traffic is at its lowest across the week and year? Royal Mail do want more flexibility including moving people from their own walks to create absorption , Royal Mail do want to use PDAs to monitor what time delivery postmen and women finish so it will assist more absorption especially outdoor. Royal Mail do want to resource to demand and not to duties and of course they want more savings.

The CWU have not agreed to any of that upfront and some of those issues will be covered in the strands.

In any negotiation no one side gets everything they want or otherwise it's not an agreement. You will have to decide whether you believe by voting no deliveries will get better without an agreement or not.

[Martin Walsh]

Fish it is funny you suggesting no one will strike if it meant that Royal Mail will bring in franchising , zero hours etc.

There is always sanctions on strike action , be that pay is lost , be that PBS bonus is lost , be that xmas bonus is lost.

Now what you have never answered is do you really think Royal Mail or any company are going to in a legal contract which is enforcable in law giving those commitments which will restrict their ability to become more profitable which is clearly why some investors have taken shares out and are not going to have a review clause if we take national strike action. Remember if they did not have that clause we could take strike action every year but they could not review the clauses until at least the 5th year and the company could be losing contracts hands over fist.

I do believe you are one of the better posters on here with your outlook. But please don't tell me you really think the company are going to make those commitments in a binding legal agreement but not cover itself from us taking strike action.

Now where I disagree with you is that I do believe if the issues are right then members will take strike action and too hell with the guarantees. But equally unless both parties find an alternative way of working together without always pushing the strike button and them pushing the executive action button which is the biggest reason for strike action then the agreement will be doomed. That is not to say we become a company union far from it but if we can achieve things for the members without a fight why would we not look at that.

Lets be clear the news that TNT have now got the funding from hedge funds etc to set up an alternative delivery workforce has not been mentioned by many on the impact of the new agreement. It is a real threat having experienced it in London all offices will lose some work to them and some will come back but companies will decide on the price and most offices in London lost between 5 and 10 % and and mail centres will also be effect as work which used to come into the inward part of the mail centre will be lost completely.

Equally the City AM news today reporting that it is expect the German Post office will become significant played within the Royal Mail.

These are things people do not think about with this deal.