why do you bother dingo?

[pcb]

Mow: get your rep to quote WFA 2000 with regard to seniority then put a grievance in and run with it. phone your Branch Secretary or your legal and medical secretary and ask for a ET1 form and then ask your area rep to help fill it out.
What the pointofhaving agreements and procedures if no one uses them!

[Danelectro]

Mow: get your rep to quote WFA 2000 with regard to seniority then put a grievance in and run with it. phone your Branch Secretary or your legal and medical secretary and ask for a ET1 form and then ask your area rep to help fill it out.
What the pointofhaving agreements and procedures if no one uses them!

Yeah easy as that,ive just handled 4 grievance's all went to appeal and not one point was conceded by Royal Mail so lets not pretend one member taking out a grievances is anything but a slow boat to nowhere.

As for WFA,then what about operational reasons? one member on a crusade for fairness without the backing of the local rep and possibly the branch(yes it does happen) is gonna have an impossible task unless the majority of members stand shoulder to shoulder with him..and do you think its gonna improve once mediation is the route to fairness proposed in the new agreement.

It may be possible to do what you suggest in your mail centre and everything is hunky dory but I hazard a guess that your in a minority..i really shouldn't have to guess as the union recently had the biggest consultation ever so they should have the figures and analysis to bring the rest of us up to the speed of your area but im sure im not the only one that 'missed' that meeting.

[chrisj]

Mow: get your rep to quote WFA 2000 with regard to seniority then put a grievance in and run with it. phone your Branch Secretary or your legal and medical secretary and ask for a ET1 form and then ask your area rep to help fill it out.
What the pointofhaving agreements and procedures if no one uses them!

Can I just add that it is not as simple as being passed over in terms of seniority...

I can understand if a Mail Centre staff does not understand that under the Revision and introduction of shared van and P&L, some office have agreed a FT/PT pairings of some duties... Hence, some part-timers will invariably get a duty before a FT and possibly senior staff.

If the office has agreed the Revision, then a grievance will be pointless...

[pcb]

Why break the principle in the first place? Seniority should've been a main principle in the revision!
If the office voted to except the revision then they should understand the consequences.
Danelectro: why did you not run it passed your branch secretary? 4 grievances yet not one could have put in a ET1?

[dvbuk55]

Why break the principle in the first place? Seniority should've been a main principle in the revision!
If the office voted to except the revision then they should understand the consequences.
Danelectro: why did you not run it passed your branch secretary? 4 grievances yet not one could have put in a ET1?

In a delivery office of 160 of which there are approximately 64 part timers there are 2 seniority lists - you cannot create hours on delivery where they don't exist consequently on a revision there has to be a decision made to embrace everyone at the expense of seniority merely to keep the jobs or you produce a fictitious revision whereby there are more staff than work - and I don't doubt that has happened in some places.

Singleton duties would be allocated on seniority but it isn't possible to pair up two full timers on a P&L duty because there is simply not the work to justify it on the original work load but with the increase of packets and parcels there should now be an increase in hours commensurate with the workload.

[pcb]

So in the future present part time duties could predominately become full time which could then lead to seniority being given its proper prominence with a members vote?

[tasam]

So in the future present part time duties could predominately become full time which could then lead to seniority being given its proper prominence with a members vote?

More likely present ft duties becoming pt - vacant ft duties always seem to end up as pt these days.

[clashcityrocker]

Singleton duties would be allocated on seniority but it isn't possible to pair up two full timers on a P&L duty because there is simply not the work to justify it .

I don't understand this.
Once they are out the door, surely it doesn't matter if they are p/t or f/t?
Inside - one does double prep while the other is on IPS.
Or one double preps and the other does a bit of IPS and a bit of prep for another duty or whatever.
Where do 2 seniority lists appear from?

[P13]

Singleton duties would be allocated on seniority but it isn't possible to pair up two full timers on a P&L duty because there is simply not the work to justify it .

I don't understand this.
Once they are out the door, surely it doesn't matter if they are p/t or f/t?
Inside - one does double prep while the other is on IPS.
Or one double preps and the other does a bit of IPS and a bit of prep for another duty or whatever.
Where do 2 seniority lists appear from?

You are correct Clash, in our office we have 2 full timers paired up, 2 part timers paired up, and 1 part timer 1 full timer pairings and only 1 seniority list , the indoor work is mainly done by the full timers

[chrisj]

So if most of the duties are shared amongst the full time staff, then you will simply have all the floaters and reserves being part-time - even 27.5hrs part-timers. Will that really work? I am not into IWTs and workflow and the rest of it but that just does not seem right and it will soon break down when some of the FT staff or a whole load of part-timers go on holidays together...

The other thing is that double-prepping works best when a FT is prepping for a PT on a paired walk. We all know what happens with double preppers that have no interest in the round they are prepping - they do very little of it and the part-timer comes in to half a walk still to be thrown out. Wrong!

Even with the best will, a double prepper will most likely take a cue from what those on IPS are doing. When the IPS folks leave, he also leaves his double prepping regardless of how much he/she has done or how productive he/she has been.

The above is a management issue but some of our fellow posties are also very good at getting away with the bearest minimum or even below.

IPS work today Tuesday was almost non-existent (night duty and managers helping) whereas double-preppers still have 2.5 boxes and whole load of loose ones incl xmas cards. So when you say a little bit of IPS - you were right; but that is not fair.

Anyway, the FT/PT combo has been put in by planners all over the country and it has been signed in many many offices - so there must be a very good reason for it.

[fishtank]

The problem with bypassing seniority on any issue without any national agreement is that you can hardly complain when Fred the manager's son gets a full-time contract after 5 weeks in the job while you've been waiting 5 years for one.
You either stick to national agreements or you hand over control to management.It's not a "dip in and out" thing.

[chrisj]

National agreement on most things is now gone forever with the latest Agreement and deal. RM will put things in place that helps their business as long as the real terms and conditions are not affected...

I am being specific about the part-time/full-time combination for shared walks and not about seniority as a rule. The ft/pt combo has been allowed to bypass an aspect of straightforward seniority in choosing duties. That cannot be reversed in offices where this has been implement and has been going on for a while - and it works!

There was very little fuss in my office anyway. Yes we have long-term (8-13) FT staff working as floaters and reserves while at least one 27.5 part-timer with about 3 years has a duty and the odd ones with less has a floater duty.

Some people were made up to FT but most apart from a very senior PT work as floaters and/or reserves.

The point is that this has come in through the back door and the Union surely most know about it - there must have been a lot of complaints - there are enough on this site.

[dvbuk55]

Singleton duties would be allocated on seniority but it isn't possible to pair up two full timers on a P&L duty because there is simply not the work to justify it .

I don't understand this.
Once they are out the door, surely it doesn't matter if they are p/t or f/t?
Inside - one does double prep while the other is on IPS.
Or one double preps and the other does a bit of IPS and a bit of prep for another duty or whatever.
Where do 2 seniority lists appear from?

One list is for full timers and one for part timers who in terms of seniority would be approached in that order should a full time post become vacant.
You're right but the operative words are "once they are out the door" it's the period prior to that, so a full timer would double prep but there is insufficient IPS to employ all the part timers bearing in mind nobody is allowed to leave until 10 a.m. and we have 2 CSS machines on site walk sorting the mail. There are duties with 2 full timers on P&L and they would be picked on seniority in the normal way but there again one starts at 7 and double preps, 1 at 9 who ties up, bags up, completes the delivery and returns at 1415 and delivers packets to 2 or 3 town duties until 1640.

The problem that is apparent is that packet and parcel IPS is taking longer and not just now but all the time and timings need to be changed but you know the score on trying to get hours in - there are so many part timers willing to come in on a moments notice with a phone call it's a losing battle.

What can I say? It's far from ideal but our revision went in 3 years ago when it was pretty much all in the air and the revisions have not been revisited since. I think the manager would put hours in if he could but isn't allowed.

[genesis]

Although I agree with most points,what if you dont have a nice walk? or walking it isnt nice? steephills, uneven steps , long drives on hills . 5 hours of that for six days and sunday you are knackered ,and when your week comes around to be off your knackered for most of it .I would like a nice walk and I have 25 years service . There are no repicks in our office , and my knees are suffering .No for some the job isnt nice or easy.

So if you're on 1 week off in 6, 6 day week and I'm assuming average 7hr 48 days why are you doing a 5hr walk? Ours are planned at 4.15 maximum on a 7.48 average day.

Plus you get an absolute minimum of 12 weeks per year off, I get 5. Yes you work 6 days but I would kill for your shift pattern.

I agree fully with the OP, yes there are some horrible days weather wise but overall we get paid very well for what we do. I actually laugh when I read posts like 'I collapse in a chair at the end of my shift' and 'This job has broken my body'

Sorry I have taken so long to reply,computer problems. Anyway I can see why you would like a One week off in six , but you didnt read my post properly, People on the same shift pattern as me who work on flat rounds like it. and with regard to 5 hours rather than 4 15 maximum if the planners did my walk it suppose to take 4 hours. And when I am off on the sixth week The manager covers it with flyers who do not sort as they get away with primary sorting. SO what is your walk like ? by the way I am 54.

[OnAFlyer]

Although I agree with most points,what if you dont have a nice walk? or walking it isnt nice? steephills, uneven steps , long drives on hills . 5 hours of that for six days and sunday you are knackered ,and when your week comes around to be off your knackered for most of it .I would like a nice walk and I have 25 years service . There are no repicks in our office , and my knees are suffering .No for some the job isnt nice or easy.

So if you're on 1 week off in 6, 6 day week and I'm assuming average 7hr 48 days why are you doing a 5hr walk? Ours are planned at 4.15 maximum on a 7.48 average day.

Plus you get an absolute minimum of 12 weeks per year off, I get 5. Yes you work 6 days but I would kill for your shift pattern.

I agree fully with the OP, yes there are some horrible days weather wise but overall we get paid very well for what we do. I actually laugh when I read posts like 'I collapse in a chair at the end of my shift' and 'This job has broken my body'

Sorry I have taken so long to reply,computer problems. Anyway I can see why you would like a One week off in six , but you didnt read my post properly, People on the same shift pattern as me who work on flat rounds like it. and with regard to 5 hours rather than 4 15 maximum if the planners did my walk it suppose to take 4 hours. And when I am off on the sixth week The manager covers it with flyers who do not sort as they get away with primary sorting. SO what is your walk like ? by the way I am 54.

Sink estate, quite a lot of grotty flats with stairs, some of which smell overpoweringly of shite and piss. It takes around 4 hrs, I'd say 50% of the staff in my office would take around the same time, 5% would be quicker, 20% slower but just about able to complete and around 25% would struggle as they do on their own walks that are either shorter or roughly the same length.

I don't get many aches and pains as we split the loops down into small bags, only 2 loops are longer than 30 mins and most are around 20. It makes the job a whole lot easier.

That's the thing with This job, people on here just seem to expect RM to leave slow people alone because everyone works at different speeds - sorry that's bullshit, you have to be competent as in any other job, and if it comes to the day I can no longer do it I'll go before I'm pushed and get an easier job somewhere else.

It's a physical job, it really is as simple as that.