vote no!

[labbloke]

Sorry Borders you and others posting are wrong to peddle mistruths.

We can collectively vote and take national industrial action, there are consequences, such as RMs withdrawal from the agreement but that doesnt mean we cannot take national strike action if we believe its right.

Sorry labbloke but with all due respect that's absolute bollocks.

Do you really expect the membership to vote for strike action that will immediately remove the legal protections covering their terms and conditions?

Do you really expect HQ to ballot the membership for national industrial action knowing they will face a heavy and embarrassing rejection?

Saying we can take industrial action is like saying you can ask your wife if you can sleep with her sister...you can of course ask but the answer will be no and the consequences will be a kick in the nuts so in all reality you're not really going to ask that question are you?[/quote]

I respect your opinion Fishtank and do so without resorting to denigrate it.

[Danelectro]

While the protections are in place the union more or less has to swallow whatever is put in front of it.

At the moment im trying to imagine how the 2 organisations -Royal Mail and the CWU could turn the screw any tighter in my office without agreeing to annualised hours or bringing in flexi time and major changes to start and finish times..

[Brain Fury]

I expect we are never going to agree. What agreement could have been made on delivery issues without further extending the negotiations i.e. what could RM and the CWU have agreed now without further work and discussion which would convince you that the matter(s) had been satisfactorily dealt with?

You see Brian you talk as if these negotiations have suddenly opened the delivery issue and that is simply not true. There has been ample opportunity to discuss what has been an obvious problem for two years and more and the union have ignored it until now and then say we'll look at it later whilst arranging for new productivity schemes.

I don't know what you do but I would suspect you're not in deliveries where the parcel and packet ratio has tripled and more in the last three years whilst still trying to cope with the mail which even if it is less it's only marginally so with the inclusion of D2Ds.

If you believe those opportunities have been missed in the past then I can understand that its a reason why you might be critical of the CWU leadership and as I said previously presumably if enough people agree and somebody wants to stand against them then they could be voted out in future.

However missed opportunities in the past doesn't have anything to do with the current deal. Serious negotiations only began relatively recently and without needing to call a strike the CWU leadership reached an agreement that they are happy to recommend. As it was many members were unhappy that they took as long as it did and presumably thought (wrongly IMO) that a strike would accelerate a resolution. Either way that doesn't change the question of what the CWU could have achieved in the timescale of the current negotiations to fully resolve the delivery issues to your satisfaction? Would you have preferred that they went on for another 3 months or longer on the basis that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed?

[fishtank]

At the moment im trying to imagine how the 2 organisations -Royal Mail and the CWU could turn the screw any tighter in my office without agreeing to annualised hours or bringing in flexi time and major changes to start and finish times..

Priorities for 2013–14
During 2013, we are concentrating our
attention on the following areas:
• Meet our Quality of Service targets, as
set by Ofcom.
• Make improvements to Delivery Office
with specific performance issues, including
investment in facilities and training of
colleagues, and improving behind-the-scenes
retrieval processes for parcels.
• Launch barcoding of machinable, addressed
letters, enabling tracking through network
from sender to receiver. Aim to convert all
business customers over three years.
• Update parcel shipping and parcel IT
systems, investing in a range of solutions
to ensure customers can easily integrate
their systems with ours.
• Continue focus on the largest areas of
customer complaints, working to understand
root causes, deploying sustainable solutions
and driving down complaints.
• Improve customer information and service
channels, making it quicker and easier to
access help and making it easier to do
business with Royal Mail.

[dvbuk55]

However missed opportunities in the past doesn't have anything to do with the current deal. Serious negotiations only began relatively recently and without needing to call a strike the CWU leadership reached an agreement that they are happy to recommend. As it was many members were unhappy that they took as long as it did and presumably thought (wrongly IMO) that a strike would accelerate a resolution. Either way that doesn't change the question of what the CWU could have achieved in the timescale of the current negotiations to fully resolve the delivery issues to your satisfaction? Would you have preferred that they went on for another 3 months or longer on the basis that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed?

Missed opportunities in the past have everything to do with the agreement because the problems are historic but presumably held up these negotiations because they could not be resolved within the time scale decided by who? RM presumably so that they can press ahead with even more modernisation before the last round of modernisation has been completed and we are still inundated with packets and parcels without the necessary infrastructure to manage and that is the crux of the matter.

Would I have preferred the talks to go on until the problems are resolved - no - we need to show that the workforce deserve to be recognised as the driving force in any modernisation plan and not some lapdog controlled by the cosy relationship between the union and RM.

[borders]

we cannot collectively strike, but unballoted IA can take place and this will happen :-
5.3 Special Mediation
Where despite the best endeavours of both Royal Mail and CWU, unballoted industrial action occurs, the Divisional Representative (or equivalent) and the Head of Industrial Relations will be immediately informed. They will work with the local representatives of both parties to identify the cause of the industrial action, resolve differences, return to work and if necessary engage in due process. Unless there is an expectation of a quick return to work they will arrange for Special Mediators to be appointed.

You won't make it to the gate before the mediators have you back at work.
Read the agreement and remember it's all legally binding.

Sorry Borders you and others posting are wrong to peddle mistruths.

We can collectively vote and take national industrial action, there are consequences, such as RMs withdrawal from the agreement but that doesnt mean we cannot take national strike action if we believe its right.

apologises Labbloke, technically you are of course right. however , I agree with the comments since posted by Fishtank . IMO if the agreement gets voted in , I don't think the Union will ever facilitate another National Strike.
due to Privatisation the landscape has changed and I think the Union has jumped into bed with RM management. I can see the Union becoming another layer of management, good cop , bad cop if you like. some people will argue , well what is wrong with that ? what else could the Union do ? as I have said many times the Union's just do deals . how will things pan out I have no idea, but there is another elephant in the room now , The Shareholder and they have yet to play their hand ???

[Brain Fury]

Missed opportunities in the past have everything to do with the agreement because the problems are historic but presumably held up these negotiations because they could not be resolved within the time scale decided by who? RM presumably so that they can press ahead with even more modernisation before the last round of modernisation has been completed and we are still inundated with packets and parcels without the necessary infrastructure to manage and that is the crux of the matter.

Would I have preferred the talks to go on until the problems are resolved - no - we need to show that the workforce deserve to be recognised as the driving force in any modernisation plan and not some lapdog controlled by the cosy relationship between the union and RM.

I'm totally confused about what you do want now but I suspect without access to the time machine to go back and begin negotiations at the point you think they should have started to resolve the issues when you think they should have been resolved I feel it's inevitable that you are going to be disappointed.

I understand you are dissatisfied with what went on (or rather didn't) in the past but that cannot be changed. So logically there were three outcomes for the recent negotiations:

1) A deal which resolves the issues of pay, T&Cs etc now and agrees to look at the delivery issues in the future - I think that's where we are
2) No deal until all the issues including delivery are resolved
3) A deal which resolves all of the issues including delivery now

Was option 3 even possible? If not which of the other two do you prefer?

[cloherty1976]

we cannot collectively strike, but unballoted IA can take place and this will happen :-
5.3 Special Mediation
Where despite the best endeavours of both Royal Mail and CWU, unballoted industrial action occurs, the Divisional Representative (or equivalent) and the Head of Industrial Relations will be immediately informed. They will work with the local representatives of both parties to identify the cause of the industrial action, resolve differences, return to work and if necessary engage in due process. Unless there is an expectation of a quick return to work they will arrange for Special Mediators to be appointed.

You won't make it to the gate before the mediators have you back at work.
Read the agreement and remember it's all legally binding.

Sorry Borders you and others posting are wrong to peddle mistruths.

We can collectively vote and take national industrial action, there are consequences, such as RMs withdrawal from the agreement but that doesnt mean we cannot take national strike action if we believe its right.

apologises Labbloke, technically you are of course right. however , I agree with the comments since posted by Fishtank . IMO if the agreement gets voted in , I don't think the Union will ever facilitate another National Strike.
due to Privatisation the landscape has changed and I think the Union has jumped into bed with RM management. I can see the Union becoming another layer of management, good cop , bad cop if you like. some people will argue , well what is wrong with that ? what else could the Union do ? as I have said many times the Union's just do deals . how will things pan out I have no idea, but there is another elephant in the room now , The Shareholder and they have yet to play their hand ???

Do you not think the vote will go massively in favour of voted in? I certainly do and I work for a minority were as delivery are the biggest section and still think they will vote yes

[dvbuk55]

Well I'll put it in the words of the CWU negotiators "nothing is agreed until EVERYTHING is agreed" but obviously everything is not agreed and yet the negotiating is done.

[cloherty1976]

Well I'll put it in the words of the CWU negotiators "nothing is agreed until EVERYTHING is agreed" but obviously everything is not agreed and yet the negotiating is done.

Isn't that standard practise and even if delivery throw there toys out of the pram and vote no surely the negotiators are going to say that's the best we can get.sorry if they bother voting that is

[gashead-postie]

its silly to say if we go on strike rm will remove everything offered...our workforce now has the ability to wreck the share price so rm would have no choice but to negotiate with us if we all walked

[cloherty1976]

its silly to say if we go on strike rm will remove everything offered...our workforce now has the ability to wreck the share price so rm would have no choice but to negotiate with us if we all walked

I don't think it works like that look at someone like ba who had a lot of strikes

[Brain Fury]

Well I'll put it in the words of the CWU negotiators "nothing is agreed until EVERYTHING is agreed" but obviously everything is not agreed and yet the negotiating is done.

Perhaps the union negotiators think that they have agreed everything they set out to agree so the negotiations are done even if the discussions are not.

Anyway, at last you've clarified that there is nothing that could have been done on delivery issues now that would have satisfied you and you would rather wait for your pay rise etc. until such time as a solution on all delivery issues can be finalised too.

[Brain Fury]

its silly to say if we go on strike rm will remove everything offered...our workforce now has the ability to wreck the share price so rm would have no choice but to negotiate with us if we all walked

I don't know if you noticed but RM negotiated even without a strike so why would you go on strike now?

The share price is only a barometer of the health of the company so what you're saying is that the workforce has the ability to wreck the company. Definitely true but is it in their interest to do so?

[newtimes]

limited time to watch
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... imal_Farm/