Understanding the magnitude of this agreement

[fishtank]

We all know that the fastest way to bring RM to its knees is to do the job how they say it should be done using the designated equipment.

I'm not sure how when the agreed planning tools say it should be able to be done using the designated equipment.
They will just blame performance issues or deliberate performance issues and flood your place with managers.
If you don't think the job can be done using the designated equipment you should really take that up with the fools who agreed the agreed planning tools but it's a bit late for that.

[egor110]

@Finishontime - I would imagine our national officers alongside branch political officers will need to lobby their local Labour party MP's in regards to Ofcom not nearly doing enough in regards to DSA and the massive threat of TNT taking our work and their T&C's for their workers.

The work that has disappeared from our D.O's is really scary,and we are struggling for indoor work,(letters). In five years time I fear what the mail landscape will look like. It is about protecting those jobs or peaople leave on their current favorable terms,(in which we currently enjoy).

However,(as I am always telling members),last years model week on letters/packets/tracked looks nothing like this year. In fact on collections we are lucky if we pick up half a bag on 50 odd boxes for live mail. Do we fight on after 2016? Yes.

Regardless of what some may say..our union has a good track record.8 times out of 10 we have local reps rather then regional ones,(we have those too alongside delivery and network reps too). However the lack of proper procedure for disagreements and local ballot requests are disappointing.
PS: I promise you Royal Mail have not been laughing in these negotiations!

Really?

I do a collection in a national park in the south west and i collect 2 bags from 20 post boxes, so half a bag from 50 boxes?

[cityfc]

Dvbuk you stated you would vote no before you even saw the agreement let alone understood it. Quite frankly you enjoy life on this board as someone similar to victor meldrew where everyone else is to blame !

make fun all you want but the troops on the ground have nothing in common with the top brass in the cwu anymore! They havent got a clue what the problems are! We are paid fine! Just treated like s**t! Do something about that & come back with a post worth reading!

I get more stick in here then most ! Now I will be meeting about 50 offices over the next few weeks mostly delivery offices as I did getting the yes vote ! How many have you been too recently or do you get all your info from here? You see offices are different and not all suffer from the same problems the CWU as part of the review will visit 60 offices in a week joint visits from all round the uk including where there are no rep and will find out the problems and then look at resolving them.

Tell me your alternative if you want this agreement rejected ?

And I bet they don't visit the real problem DO's

[cityfc]

How many of these 60 offices are going to be ones with actual bad bullying or harassment?
Are these joint groups just going to show up or will they give them a fortnights warning like when the auditors arrive?
What will happen is these knobjockeys will turn up at the best performing offices..you know the ones where you could eat your dinner off the shithouse floor with smiling Courier type turds who are heavily into World Class Mail flow charts and shoe charts.

Couldn't have put it better myself

[Godric]

so Dingo
you want us to vote yes to sign up to a new business plan which Royal Mail have yet to announce,
you want us to sign up to a new productivity scheme ... colleague shares anyone
You want us to sign up to what equates to a no strike deal
you want us to sign up to an new deal where the deliveries (work loads/ B&H by line managers) has not been agreed after 7 weeks of no headway
You want us to sign up to a new deal where the pensions have not been resolved


.... that ain't a deal it is a cop out ... you want us to sign up to the same deal we rejected months ago .... the only difference from this agreement and the last one is the new one has been reworded

I am voting NO

[dvbuk55]

so Dingo
you want us to vote yes to sign up to a new business plan which Royal Mail have yet to announce,
you want us to sign up to a new productivity scheme ... colleague shares anyone
You want us to sign up to what equates to a no strike deal
you want us to sign up to an new deal where the deliveries (work loads/ B&H by line managers) has not been agreed after 7 weeks of no headway
You want us to sign up to a new deal where the pensions have not been resolved


.... that ain't a deal it is a cop out ... you want us to sign up to the same deal we rejected months ago .... the only difference from this agreement and the last one is the new one has been reworded

I am voting NO

Well Godric that's a very fair assessment of exactly what this deal is.

[Martin Walsh]

Godric you have clearly not understood the agreement,

1. There is no new business plan. There are no savings targets agreed. Instead the CWU will be involved in developing the Agenda for Growth. As part of this work there will be a review of how the change in the mix of mail is having on operational workloads and individuals. Lets be clear here it should be everyones joint desire to retain and capture more work to sustain jobs.For the record when TNT rolls out across the UK and not just in Manchester and London they will capture a % of traffic from your delivery office and that work will be lost to the mail centre as well.

2. Colleague share was not a productivity scheme. There has not been a productivity scheme since the 50/50 scheme which when that was running members got a share of the savings from absorption. There is nothing to fear from productivity schemes some of your basic pay is from the old scheme of IWM and from PBS. Your christmas bonus was originally from the old IWM scheme.

3. Your reference to it being a no strike deal shows you have not read the agreement. Lets be clear here within a legal document there is always clauses for exceptional circumstances. Do you really think Royal Mail are going to sign an open ended legal guarantees which will restrict their ability to increase profits in a major way like most other privatised company and then not expect them not to review the Legal Guarantees if we take strike action. In legal documents this is whats called force majeure.
The legal framework give us the legal right to disagree and go to disagreement. The force majeure clauses are subject to a legal test they cannot be triggered at the whim of the company.

4. Have you read the delivery agreement. There is a section within the agreement titled Fairness Dignity and Respect in the workplace which to the Joint statement which came out regarding bullying and harassment in delivery offices. Bob is meeting Mark Fellows from Royal Mail to have a joint brief to be delivered in all delivery offices regarding what is and is not acceptable behaviour regarding bullying and workload issues.

5. Again the pension has been resolved and is within a legally binding agreement and is subject to a separate ballot of the members.

[Budfrog]

I'm not sure how when the agreed planning tools say it should be able to be done using the designated equipment.

Agreed planning tools have to comply with 'Safe Systems of Work' and 'Standard Operating Procedures' which specify the use of the correct 'Tools for the Job' ie designated equipment.

[dvbuk55]

Well clearly Godric you've not understood the deal as dingo would like you to.

Your explanation is far clearer than the agreement itself and I believe we have yet to see the legal aspects of it but maybe they'll be showcased after the deal. There's the aspect of the "bonus scheme" sight unseen to be unveiled yet.

You're right to say no and so am I - but we won't get the chance until after the Christmas sweetener - paid for with about 1/6th of the colleague share money we should have been due and the union rolled over on that on saying they didn't agree with it anyway but didn't mind humping it up for the previous agreement. As for the added 0.4% well that's a third of the previously offered £300.....................same deal different wording

[cloherty1976]

Godric you have clearly not understood the agreement,

1. There is no new business plan. There are no savings targets agreed. Instead the CWU will be involved in developing the Agenda for Growth. As part of this work there will be a review of how the change in the mix of mail is having on operational workloads and individuals. Lets be clear here it should be everyones joint desire to retain and capture more work to sustain jobs.For the record when TNT rolls out across the UK and not just in Manchester and London they will capture a % of traffic from your delivery office and that work will be lost to the mail centre as well.

2. Colleague share was not a productivity scheme. There has not been a productivity scheme since the 50/50 scheme which when that was running members got a share of the savings from absorption. There is nothing to fear from productivity schemes some of your basic pay is from the old scheme of IWM and from PBS. Your christmas bonus was originally from the old IWM scheme.

3. Your reference to it being a no strike deal shows you have not read the agreement. Lets be clear here within a legal document there is always clauses for exceptional circumstances. Do you really think Royal Mail are going to sign an open ended legal guarantees which will restrict their ability to increase profits in a major way like most other privatised company and then not expect them not to review the Legal Guarantees if we take strike action. In legal documents this is whats called force majeure.
The legal framework give us the legal right to disagree and go to disagreement. The force majeure clauses are subject to a legal test they cannot be triggered at the whim of the company.

4. Have you read the delivery agreement. There is a section within the agreement titled Fairness Dignity and Respect in the workplace which to the Joint statement which came out regarding bullying and harassment in delivery offices. Bob is meeting Mark Fellows from Royal Mail to have a joint brief to be delivered in all delivery offices regarding what is and is not acceptable behaviour regarding bullying and workload issues.

5. Again the pension has been resolved and is within a legally binding agreement and is subject to a separate ballot of the members.

Dingo I am more than happy but all I am personally interested in is working for network side of the buisiness and reading the letter we received this morning do I work for Royal Mail core operations network?

[Martin Walsh]

yes you Network is covered by the full terms of the agreement.

Dvbuk you would not be happy with any agreement.

I recognise that individuals are entitled to their opinions but I do get concerned when people totally misrepresent what has been agreed.

With any legal document whether it's your car insurance or mortgage there are review clauses in exceptional circumstances.

It is important that people are given the right information regarding the difference between what we had previously in terms of national agreements which arise our f collective bargaining and what we now have in terms of a legally binding agreement.

Now your questing the pay resolution , well let's look at the original offer it was 2.6% in the first year , 3% in year 2 and 2.8% in year 3. We have moved £100 into the basic wage and front loaded the first year to 3%.

The previous offer was also linked us accepting the pension changes a no strike deal and changes to working praticses

[dvbuk55]

Whatever - if they had us showing our arses on the DO gate you'd think it was a good deal - that's the trouble with union wannabes, they cannot see past their own ambition.

[Godric]

Godric you have clearly not understood the agreement,

1. There is no new business plan. There are no savings targets agreed. Instead the CWU will be involved in developing the Agenda for Growth. As part of this work there will be a review of how the change in the mix of mail is having on operational workloads and individuals. Lets be clear here it should be everyones joint desire to retain and capture more work to sustain jobs.For the record when TNT rolls out across the UK and not just in Manchester and London they will capture a % of traffic from your delivery office and that work will be lost to the mail centre as well.

2. Colleague share was not a productivity scheme. There has not been a productivity scheme since the 50/50 scheme which when that was running members got a share of the savings from absorption. There is nothing to fear from productivity schemes some of your basic pay is from the old scheme of IWM and from PBS. Your christmas bonus was originally from the old IWM scheme.

3. Your reference to it being a no strike deal shows you have not read the agreement. Lets be clear here within a legal document there is always clauses for exceptional circumstances. Do you really think Royal Mail are going to sign an open ended legal guarantees which will restrict their ability to increase profits in a major way like most other privatised company and then not expect them not to review the Legal Guarantees if we take strike action. In legal documents this is whats called force majeure.
The legal framework give us the legal right to disagree and go to disagreement. The force majeure clauses are subject to a legal test they cannot be triggered at the whim of the company.

4. Have you read the delivery agreement. There is a section within the agreement titled Fairness Dignity and Respect in the workplace which to the Joint statement which came out regarding bullying and harassment in delivery offices. Bob is meeting Mark Fellows from Royal Mail to have a joint brief to be delivered in all delivery offices regarding what is and is not acceptable behaviour regarding bullying and workload issues.

5. Again the pension has been resolved and is within a legally binding agreement and is subject to a separate ballot of the members.

I understood it quite fine Dingo ... their is more strings attached to it than a episode of Thunderbirds and it is filled with what ifs and I stand by my words that it is the same deal we rejected months ago .... guys like you within the union hierarchy told us that the deals in 2007 & 2009 were ground braking ... I think what you meant to say that they were Back Breaking .... so please stop trying to pass off of a howler as a great deal ... it isn't ... you don't have to live with it ... the guys like myself on delivery ... we do have to live with it and it is a no strike deal as Royal Mail has threatened to end the deal if a strike is called at anytime .... and the union has made it much harder for units to take industrial action on local issues .... that to me is unacceptable


ps how much have they taken out our pensions this time ... as you need to be a f*cking accountant to understand the pension scheme as it is now

[Godric]

Well clearly Godric you've not understood the deal as dingo would like you to.

Your explanation is far clearer than the agreement itself and I believe we have yet to see the legal aspects of it but maybe they'll be showcased after the deal. There's the aspect of the "bonus scheme" sight unseen to be unveiled yet.

You're right to say no and so am I - but we won't get the chance until after the Christmas sweetener - paid for with about 1/6th of the colleague share money we should have been due and the union rolled over on that on saying they didn't agree with it anyway but didn't mind humping it up for the previous agreement. As for the added 0.4% well that's a third of the previously offered £300.....................same deal different wording

well mate I think for myself .... and this does not go down well with the rest of the sheep ..... I will not be supporting this deal because double speak and rehashing words does not sit well with me especially when it is designed to dupe people

[fishtank]

3. Your reference to it being a no strike deal shows you have not read the agreement.

Your reference to it being a right to review and then using the term force majeure shows that you have little understanding of legal documents or you are trying to pull the wool over some people's eyes.The two things are not the same and this is neither.

In a legal document the words are definitely the words and the document signed is the legal document not some explanatory side notes from one legal representation or the other.
The specific words of this legally binding contract are...

7.1 The Employer shall be entitled to notify the CWU at any time that any of the Protections will no longer continue, if any of the following exceptional circumstances apply:

e) if there is national-scale industrial action (in the form of a strike or action short of a strike) which has been authorised at national level by the CWU, namely industrial action which either (i) involves employees in the majority of operational workplaces across Royal Mail Group Limited; or (ii) involves employees in an integral part of the operation whereby taking action will have, or is reasonably likely to have, a similarly disruptive effect.

It can't be a force majeure clause because what triggers force majeure has to be outside the control of both parties and it's not a review clause because it doesn't mention review,It specifically mentions the discontinuation of the protections.

It is probably as blatant a "no national strike clause" as you'll see in any agreement and the fact that it's legally binding probably makes it the first legally binding "no strike agreement" in the history of UK trade unions.Thatcher would be so proud.
That's a hell of a landmark for the CWU.

Rather than trying to spin this into something it's not and basically lie to the membership the union should be upfront,Admit it is what it is and explain to the membership that the only way Royal Mail were going to give us legal protection was in return for a national no strike agreement and the tying up of the IR Framework in convoluted mediation which means local action is going to be next to impossible.

Be honest,front it and let the membership decide if the sacrifice was worth it,If the union decides not to it will get very difficult for the union if Royal Mail start playing hardball with workload,performance,pay and efficiency and the membership start to realise for themselves exactly what kind of mess we've gotten ourselves into.