Leaving the Union

[dvbuk55]

You also have people transfer in from far and wide and believe me they paint a very different picture of deliveries where they've transferred from and it has never been worse than our office.

[pudz1224]

should never leave the union there is one at my work who left so he could work when we were on strike in 2009 then re-joined as he needed help with family friendly a route i'd never go down but thats for another thread

[manfromuncle]

Trouble is, the union don't help themselves where the members are concerned.
I know of two members in my office that faced the sack, one even being charged and going to court. Both members weren't represented by the union as they were deemed less likely (less than 50%) to get off. The first was sacked, the second sacked and then acquitted at court, they were both long standing members who'd paid many years in to the union.... ta very much

Then at national level they sell us out or generally bollix it up and to cap it off, treat the members with utter contempt.
No wonder unions are dying on their arses..

[harrybass]

Without the union you'd not get sick pay, you'd be on minimum wage, years of good work by the union got us the pay and terms we have now. As Royal Mail always want to change things the union have to make sacrifices. Seriously if the union packed up ad left you'd regret it big time, you think the managers are bad now. Having a union covers your back if you ever get in trouble, that's why I pay my subs, I don't base it on agreements but to know that they have my back day in day out.

[chrisj]

Without the union you'd not get sick pay, you'd be on minimum wage, years of good work by the union got us the pay and terms we have now. As Royal Mail always want to change things the union have to make sacrifices. Seriously if the union packed up ad left you'd regret it big time, you think the managers are bad now. Having a union covers your back if you ever get in trouble, that's why I pay my subs, I don't base it on agreements but to know that they have my back day in day out.

I disagree! there are companies without a big or powerful union as ours and they are not on minimum wage and sick pay and the rest of it is something that a lot of employers offer automatically.

If the Union had simply accepted the deal we will still not be like or end of like TNT. Industrial relations is not always a one-way street and most employers actually do the decent thing whilst still trying to make profit.

RM offered us 8.6% and 3 years protection and shares and bonus and lump sum... We did not even have to fight that! Too much hype about the Union - Industrial Relations have moved on from the early Industrial age...

[Martin Walsh]

chris do you really think that Royal Mail would have offered that figure if there was no CWU ? If you do your deluded.

Apart from a few companies mainly banking and related industries most have got nowhere near what we have on offer.

Look most industries are comparable with others. Royal Mail competitors are TNT , Yodel ,Hermes , Parcel2go , Express parcel delivery , DHL and UPS and about 30 other different companies.

None of those companies offer anything like what we do and that includes sick leave provision , paid meal reliefs , up to 6 weeks annual leave , the opportunity to purchase leave , shift allowances , driving allowance , professional driving , fork lift allowances , RRIS payments , pensions , London Weighting , job security , the ability to negotiate locally , collective agreements.

So do you really believe in your wildest imagination that if the CWU did not exist Royal Mail would have come in an offered 8.6 as an initial offer ?

No they would not have , without a union they would have offered far less and expected changes in working conditions and efficiency related.

I am all for having a reasonable debate but as previously said get real.

Lets examine TNT who operate in London the weekly pay of a postman in inner London is £488.98 ( inclusive of the Delivery supplement and for Outer London it is £462.94. In TNT they have no set weekly wage as they do not have full timers. Their hourly rate is £7.10 and the average hours worked is just short of 22 hours so the average pay would be £156. If a part timers in London in Royal Mail was to work 22 hours they would receive £275.83 for inner London and £261.14 for outer london.

Plus we get annual leave. payments for ex bonus payments , the employer pays 17% pension contributions for people employed before 2008 and up to 7% for those employed after and 6 months full pay if your sick. TNT for the first 2 months are on zero hour contracts and then on fixed term contracts as fixed term contracts on minimal hours.

Chris you really need to understand companies review their wages with comparable companies and Royal Mail are the lead in terms of conditions and it is the CWU who have got that for Royal Mail workers.

Remember Adam Croziers famous line postmen and women are 20% underworked and 30% over paid.

The CWU have improved wages since he said that , but be in doubt without a union Royal Mail would compel the workforce to the race to the bottom in terms of terms and conditions.

[Himaggen]

None of those companies offer anything like what we do and that includes sick leave provision , paid meal reliefs , up to 6 weeks annual leave , the opportunity to purchase leave , shift allowances , driving allowance , professional driving , fork lift allowances , RRIS payments , pensions , London Weighting , job security , the ability to negotiate locally , collective agreements.

<SNIP />

Plus we get annual leave. payments for ex bonus payments , the employer pays 17% pension contributions for people employed before 2008 and up to 7% for those employed after and 6 months full pay if your sick. TNT for the first 2 months are on zero hour contracts and then on fixed term contracts as fixed term contracts on minimal hours.

And what is it exactly stopping us losing all of those as soon as we 'agree' with the CWU position?

• We take them to court and we lose
• We take them to court and we draw
• We take them to court and win but unfortunately too much time has been wasted and it no longer feasible to re-implement them.

[cloherty1976]

Remember Adam Croziers famous line postmen and women are 20% underworked and 30% over paid.

Agree with you dingo but on a lighter note do you now agree with what crozier famous Line said? He did have a point I think..

[Martin Walsh]

None of those companies offer anything like what we do and that includes sick leave provision , paid meal reliefs , up to 6 weeks annual leave , the opportunity to purchase leave , shift allowances , driving allowance , professional driving , fork lift allowances , RRIS payments , pensions , London Weighting , job security , the ability to negotiate locally , collective agreements.

<SNIP />

Plus we get annual leave. payments for ex bonus payments , the employer pays 17% pension contributions for people employed before 2008 and up to 7% for those employed after and 6 months full pay if your sick. TNT for the first 2 months are on zero hour contracts and then on fixed term contracts as fixed term contracts on minimal hours.

And what is it exactly stopping us losing all of those as soon as we 'agree' with the CWU position?

• We take them to court and we lose
• We take them to court and we draw
• We take them to court and win but unfortunately too much time has been wasted and it no longer feasible to re-implement them.

When it is simple breach the union can give the employer up to 4 weeks to reconsider and then we can take them to court and get an injunction which stops the Royal Mail from doing what they were as they would be in breach of court if they continued. Now thats a little bit different from now when if they breach an agreement we would ask for a meeting.

Now if they then said we will sell of logistics to an other party then we can take them immediately to the high court as they were in breach of the legally binding and forcible legal protection against franchising or the break up of the company. Now we would probably demand a meeting whilst preparing to ballot.

Now what would be better ?

[fishtank]

When it is simple breach the union can give the employer up to 4 weeks to reconsider and then we can take them to court and get an injunction which stops the Royal Mail from doing what they were as they would be in breach of court if they continued. Now thats a little bit different from now when if they breach an agreement we would ask for a meeting.

So really we should just leave the union and employ Simpson Millar on a retainer?
I'm sure it would be a great deal less than £28 million per annum.
What are the national officers going to do between legal cases?
Are we a union or a law firm?

[cloherty1976]

When it is simple breach the union can give the employer up to 4 weeks to reconsider and then we can take them to court and get an injunction which stops the Royal Mail from doing what they were as they would be in breach of court if they continued. Now thats a little bit different from now when if they breach an agreement we would ask for a meeting.

So really we should just leave the union and employ Simpson Millar on a retainer?
I'm sure it would be a great deal less than £28 million per annum.
What are the national officers going to do between legal cases?
Are we a union or a law firm?

That's double there turnover !

[*xen*]

Here's my tuppence worth.

Leaving the union because you are angry and frustrated at its perceived impotence, thereby weakening the union still further is, to my mind, bonkers.

You might think it's bad now and that the union has failed. You may want to vent your understandable frustration by voting with your feet.

But without any representation or protection that a union gives against the dark forces of profit and greed this job could get unimaginably s**t very quickly.

You have been warned. Think before you act.

[tansorboy]

Here's my tuppence worth.

Leaving the union because you are angry and frustrated at its perceived impotence, thereby weakening the union still further is, to my mind, bonkers.

You might think it's bad now and that the union has failed. You may want to vent your understandable frustration by voting with your feet.

But without any representation or protection that a union gives against the dark forces of profit and greed this job could get unimaginably s**t very quickly.

You have been warned. Think before you act.

[Martin Walsh]

When it is simple breach the union can give the employer up to 4 weeks to reconsider and then we can take them to court and get an injunction which stops the Royal Mail from doing what they were as they would be in breach of court if they continued. Now thats a little bit different from now when if they breach an agreement we would ask for a meeting.

So really we should just leave the union and employ Simpson Millar on a retainer?
I'm sure it would be a great deal less than £28 million per annum.
What are the national officers going to do between legal cases?
Are we a union or a law firm?

Fish for one it is not simpson and miller , but more importantly the legally binding agreement is a commitment between the CWU and Royal Mail a contract which individuals cannot claim on. Now the case is are we better having resource to a court if they break the ir framework or a national agreement or are we better simply coming on here and moaning about a manager breaking it ?

[dvbuk55]

When it is simple breach the union can give the employer up to 4 weeks to reconsider and then we can take them to court and get an injunction which stops the Royal Mail from doing what they were as they would be in breach of court if they continued. Now thats a little bit different from now when if they breach an agreement we would ask for a meeting.

So really we should just leave the union and employ Simpson Millar on a retainer?
I'm sure it would be a great deal less than £28 million per annum.
What are the national officers going to do between legal cases?
Are we a union or a law firm?

Fish for one it is not simpson and miller , but more importantly the legally binding agreement is a commitment between the CWU and Royal Mail a contract which individuals cannot claim on. Now the case is are we better having resource to a court if they break the ir framework or a national agreement or are we better simply coming on here and moaning about a manager breaking it ?

It doesn't matter if it's Simpson & Miller or anyone else the premise is it would be cheaper than the current running costs of the present set up. Vote NO and lets see what Santa has left in his sack. Perhaps we should all leave the CWU to their own little world and pay unite for the privilege of being let down - getting rid of the present incumbents in the process together with the sycophants.