A few on here need a reality check

[fishtank]

We seek to develop a new way of working together to resolve disputes without unilateral action

[Sergeant Blast]

As there are already enough words in agreements to protect people from B&H, then maybe some sackings are called for, this may concentrate people's minds. I think this is the only thing that will stop this, or are RM going to wait for a suicide before they react.

There have already been cases of suicides of delivery staff at RM. It is thought B&H may have been a factor in some of these.

[fishtank]

Subdivision of solidarity is the road to destruction for a union but it doesn't come as a surprise to me,the CWU has been preaching this mantra of single unit unionism for a long time now and it's effects are obvious throughout the organisation.

Look at the divisions between mailcentre staff and delivery staff,drivers and processing,strong areas and weak areas,unit to unit.It's a race to the bottom of terms and conditions but some mistakenly believe that as long as their unit/area/function is strong it doesn't matter what happens to the rest.

It does matter obviously on both a moral and practical level but with some people there's no point in going there so I won't bother.

If the union really wants to go down this route of leaving units to fend for themselves if I was in a weak area/unit/function I would seriously consider just jacking the union in and I don't say that lightly but if you're going to get rolled over anyway and receive little or no support from the union why would you pay for the privilege?
If you're going to have to do your own barking first get rid of the dog,it's just a drain on your resources.

[dvbuk55]

I'll wait for the agreement, vote no, leave the union with quite a bunch that are already lining up - the last time we threatened that the full time bozos came down quicker than a ferret down a rabbit hole.

[hampshireman]

So this survey on delivery issues and B&H.
Will we be expected to fill them in on WTL sessions again with managers hovering around and veiled threats off management if we don't fill them in correctly(for them) and then have to hand them back in to the managers to fraud...I mean send back,,,ala the Have Your say bolloxs?

Sorry General; At your rank surely you would not be so spineless as to be intimidated?

Don't play the effing game .. take the form home and fill in .

This is not difficult

[hampshireman]

Have any of you established posties stopped to consider that one big reason myself and others come in early (and usually finish early) which you are critical of because it helps the DOMs claim everything's all rosy in the garden IS BECAUSE WE ARE ON 6-MONTH RENEWABLE CONTRACTS?? I have a family to feed and from one who has come from outside the public sector (ironic as now we are the private sector...) I can say the delivery job does provide a living wage and yes, the CWU over the years has ensured this.
I experienced a short spell of unemployment before joining and my Lord was it depressing. To have a decent wage (compared to the crap MW offers that are around for similar manual positions) was a great relief to me, and despite the stress I often feel in the office I enjoy being out on delivery. The thing is, during my first few months I was bitten and advised by a manager NOT to report it as it "has to be logged and you could go down as 'accident-prone' as a result which may affect your chances of another 6-months work." Last week me and a partner had to delivery literally tens of kilos of thick households left from the week before that various posties had ignored when put on the job that previous week for one day at a time only - these were thrown off (4 days worth) all at once by a 'light duties' injured person, and as a reward for delivering them when they weren't ours, did they tell the light-duties person to throw the rest of ours off in exchange for us delivering them?? DID THEY ****!!!
OK, you think this is a digression from the thread, but it's not. My point is, has any deal/negotiation been reached over the use of these 6-month deals? They are a clear invitation for us to be blackmailed and shat upon by being given crap treatment they wouldn't dare give to established posties. My rep did say the buggers were even considering bringing in ZERO HOUR deals, but he said the CWU would never agree, so I hope this was the case. 6-months is bad enough. I know guys who've done 3-years on 6-month deals, which is pointless as after 2 years you have the same redundancy and tribunal rights as someone who's done 2 years on a permanent deal. Obviously after 4 years you have to be permanent by law anyway. My rep has stated that he hoped to get the good 6-monthers permanent contracts to ease their worries. Any ideas??

You have corrupt managers using the temporary contract situation to stitch you up, bend you over and shaft you silly.

Temporary contracts at the start is the way it's always been in RM, ok it wasn't so widespread when I started but I had a trial period of a few months like everyone else. They don't just give you a permanent FT contract from the start and they never will.

I can't remember a single person in my office who started, wanted to stay in the job and wasn't kept on. Not one in 16 years. Even the retards who can't sort, can't learn IPS and can't do a delivery within time are kept on.

There's a difference between not wanting to be awkward, and being a doormat and destroying the job for yourself. The irony is, by going in early, doing extra work you shouldn't etc you are actually saving hours in the office - and that means less staff needed and less chance of you actually being made permanent.

Really? Poor choice of words

[OnAFlyer]

Have any of you established posties stopped to consider that one big reason myself and others come in early (and usually finish early) which you are critical of because it helps the DOMs claim everything's all rosy in the garden IS BECAUSE WE ARE ON 6-MONTH RENEWABLE CONTRACTS?? I have a family to feed and from one who has come from outside the public sector (ironic as now we are the private sector...) I can say the delivery job does provide a living wage and yes, the CWU over the years has ensured this.
I experienced a short spell of unemployment before joining and my Lord was it depressing. To have a decent wage (compared to the crap MW offers that are around for similar manual positions) was a great relief to me, and despite the stress I often feel in the office I enjoy being out on delivery. The thing is, during my first few months I was bitten and advised by a manager NOT to report it as it "has to be logged and you could go down as 'accident-prone' as a result which may affect your chances of another 6-months work." Last week me and a partner had to delivery literally tens of kilos of thick households left from the week before that various posties had ignored when put on the job that previous week for one day at a time only - these were thrown off (4 days worth) all at once by a 'light duties' injured person, and as a reward for delivering them when they weren't ours, did they tell the light-duties person to throw the rest of ours off in exchange for us delivering them?? DID THEY ****!!!
OK, you think this is a digression from the thread, but it's not. My point is, has any deal/negotiation been reached over the use of these 6-month deals? They are a clear invitation for us to be blackmailed and shat upon by being given crap treatment they wouldn't dare give to established posties. My rep did say the buggers were even considering bringing in ZERO HOUR deals, but he said the CWU would never agree, so I hope this was the case. 6-months is bad enough. I know guys who've done 3-years on 6-month deals, which is pointless as after 2 years you have the same redundancy and tribunal rights as someone who's done 2 years on a permanent deal. Obviously after 4 years you have to be permanent by law anyway. My rep has stated that he hoped to get the good 6-monthers permanent contracts to ease their worries. Any ideas??

You have corrupt managers using the temporary contract situation to stitch you up, bend you over and shaft you silly.

Temporary contracts at the start is the way it's always been in RM, ok it wasn't so widespread when I started but I had a trial period of a few months like everyone else. They don't just give you a permanent FT contract from the start and they never will.

I can't remember a single person in my office who started, wanted to stay in the job and wasn't kept on. Not one in 16 years. Even the retards who can't sort, can't learn IPS and can't do a delivery within time are kept on.

There's a difference between not wanting to be awkward, and being a doormat and destroying the job for yourself. The irony is, by going in early, doing extra work you shouldn't etc you are actually saving hours in the office - and that means less staff needed and less chance of you actually being made permanent.

Really? Poor choice of words

Not really, anyone who can go on IPS for 15 years and still look at the idiot boards for every letter is no less than full retard.

[General Mannerheim]

So this survey on delivery issues and B&H.
Will we be expected to fill them in on WTL sessions again with managers hovering around and veiled threats off management if we don't fill them in correctly(for them) and then have to hand them back in to the managers to fraud...I mean send back,,,ala the Have Your say bolloxs?

Sorry General; At your rank surely you would not be so spineless as to be intimidated?

Don't play the effing game .. take the form home and fill in .

This is not difficult

Did i say i was intimidated off any turds in Royal Mail,no.
But I do know around 175 people in our office who are.

[manfromuncle]

Lets be clear lots of reps and members are frustrated with the lack of Comms and details of the agreement.

My own opinion is that in these days of different options for most carriers and big posters the threat of a strike is often more of a threat then the actual strike. years ago we would go out on strike and return to work and still have all the Mail we started with. Not anymore , there are over 20 major other parcels carriers along with the major suppliers from the internet like Amazon. The CWU were right to use the threat but the continued extensions overplayed our hand and the threat of a strike became an idle threat as the pause meant many members would be difficult to now get out if strike action was called as they had believe there would be a deal.

The CWU negotiators believed they have got a very good deal , which no other company in the UK has given to any union following a share offering or privatisation. It is legally binding and therefore has been written by lawyers which unless your a legally trained individual needs to be explained by the same lawyers to what each section means in lay terms. But it covers the normal threats from privatisation , no break up of the company , no franchising a real threat , no outsourcing an even bigger threat , no two tier workforce.

Other then MPs the pay rise on offer is the best one around of a unionised workforce.

Pensions is subject to a separate deal including some improvements for the scheme set up for new recruits after 2008.

On workplace issues yes there is a new process for dealing with Mail Centre , RDCs and Voc closures. There also a joint statement on the outstanding Mail centre and RDC Voc Closures.

Now on delivery there is an agreement which will review the problems of delivery offices. But let's be clear if anyone is expecting the review to return delivery working to pre methods , job and finish , no absorption and a 3.5 hour delivery span is living in dreamland.

The solutions in delivery are not the same as they were pre 2007. Parcels are growing and so are the advertising mails both unaddressed and addressed. Traffic is not the same during the year but the amount of reserves and walks are which is why you have lapsing. Unless we tackle this then the problems with continue and I understands there will be incentive. Schemes from April. Remember when absorption was first agreed staff got a share via the 50 / 50 scheme.

The review will cover all the issues and will have joint visits.

B&H is covered but if I am honest the only way we can ever eliminate B&H completely is if offices walk if they or any member are targeted.

my understanding is that all the amendments were accepted by the negotiators.

It should not surprise anyone that both parties want to publish it at the same time and for Royal Mail the stock exchange announcement is also in their mind.

No doubt I will get a lot of negative comments but my advice is read the agreement before deciding whether it's a sale out.

Can't believe what I'm seeing these days
Same shite from some of our reps that show up now and again. I have trouble telling the difference between the firms and the unions drivel sometimes. If a union rep from 20/30 years ago saw this shite he wouldn't believe it.
I'm sick of hearing the old " you wanna think yourselves lucky" bollix.... better than this, not as bad as that, you're all living longer etc...
Fell for the systems sound bites I think.

[DirtyHarry]

Yes, we need the 'reality check.'

[postypie]

Have any of you established posties stopped to consider that one big reason myself and others come in early (and usually finish early) which you are critical of because it helps the DOMs claim everything's all rosy in the garden IS BECAUSE WE ARE ON 6-MONTH RENEWABLE CONTRACTS?? I have a family to feed and from one who has come from outside the public sector (ironic as now we are the private sector...) I can say the delivery job does provide a living wage and yes, the CWU over the years has ensured this.
I experienced a short spell of unemployment before joining and my Lord was it depressing. To have a decent wage (compared to the crap MW offers that are around for similar manual positions) was a great relief to me, and despite the stress I often feel in the office I enjoy being out on delivery. The thing is, during my first few months I was bitten and advised by a manager NOT to report it as it "has to be logged and you could go down as 'accident-prone' as a result which may affect your chances of another 6-months work." Last week me and a partner had to delivery literally tens of kilos of thick households left from the week before that various posties had ignored when put on the job that previous week for one day at a time only - these were thrown off (4 days worth) all at once by a 'light duties' injured person, and as a reward for delivering them when they weren't ours, did they tell the light-duties person to throw the rest of ours off in exchange for us delivering them?? DID THEY ****!!!
OK, you think this is a digression from the thread, but it's not. My point is, has any deal/negotiation been reached over the use of these 6-month deals? They are a clear invitation for us to be blackmailed and shat upon by being given crap treatment they wouldn't dare give to established posties. My rep did say the buggers were even considering bringing in ZERO HOUR deals, but he said the CWU would never agree, so I hope this was the case. 6-months is bad enough. I know guys who've done 3-years on 6-month deals, which is pointless as after 2 years you have the same redundancy and tribunal rights as someone who's done 2 years on a permanent deal. Obviously after 4 years you have to be permanent by law anyway. My rep has stated that he hoped to get the good 6-monthers permanent contracts to ease their worries. Any ideas??

You have corrupt managers using the temporary contract situation to stitch you up, bend you over and shaft you silly.

Temporary contracts at the start is the way it's always been in RM, ok it wasn't so widespread when I started but I had a trial period of a few months like everyone else. They don't just give you a permanent FT contract from the start and they never will.

I can't remember a single person in my office who started, wanted to stay in the job and wasn't kept on. Not one in 16 years. Even the retards who can't sort, can't learn IPS and can't do a delivery within time are kept on.

There's a difference between not wanting to be awkward, and being a doormat and destroying the job for yourself. The irony is, by going in early, doing extra work you shouldn't etc you are actually saving hours in the office - and that means less staff needed and less chance of you actually being made permanent.

Really? Poor choice of words

Not really, anyone who can go on IPS for 15 years and still look at the idiot boards for every letter is no less than full retard.

What you mean every single letter?
Being spare and knowing 99% of all duties in our office....I occasionally refer to this idiots board now and again as duties change due to an ever expanding city and the fact I like to sort letters/flats correctly....surely this can't be a bad thing?

[Godric]

Lets be clear lots of reps and members are frustrated with the lack of Comms and details of the agreement.

My own opinion is that in these days of different options for most carriers and big posters the threat of a strike is often more of a threat then the actual strike. years ago we would go out on strike and return to work and still have all the Mail we started with. Not anymore , there are over 20 major other parcels carriers along with the major suppliers from the internet like Amazon. The CWU were right to use the threat but the continued extensions overplayed our hand and the threat of a strike became an idle threat as the pause meant many members would be difficult to now get out if strike action was called as they had believe there would be a deal.

The CWU negotiators believed they have got a very good deal , which no other company in the UK has given to any union following a share offering or privatisation. It is legally binding and therefore has been written by lawyers which unless your a legally trained individual needs to be explained by the same lawyers to what each section means in lay terms. But it covers the normal threats from privatisation , no break up of the company , no franchising a real threat , no outsourcing an even bigger threat , no two tier workforce.

Other then MPs the pay rise on offer is the best one around of a unionised workforce.

Pensions is subject to a separate deal including some improvements for the scheme set up for new recruits after 2008.

On workplace issues yes there is a new process for dealing with Mail Centre , RDCs and Voc closures. There also a joint statement on the outstanding Mail centre and RDC Voc Closures.

Now on delivery there is an agreement which will review the problems of delivery offices. But let's be clear if anyone is expecting the review to return delivery working to pre methods , job and finish , no absorption and a 3.5 hour delivery span is living in dreamland.

The solutions in delivery are not the same as they were pre 2007. Parcels are growing and so are the advertising mails both unaddressed and addressed. Traffic is not the same during the year but the amount of reserves and walks are which is why you have lapsing. Unless we tackle this then the problems with continue and I understands there will be incentive. Schemes from April. Remember when absorption was first agreed staff got a share via the 50 / 50 scheme.

The review will cover all the issues and will have joint visits.

B&H is covered but if I am honest the only way we can ever eliminate B&H completely is if offices walk if they or any member are targeted.

my understanding is that all the amendments were accepted by the negotiators.

It should not surprise anyone that both parties want to publish it at the same time and for Royal Mail the stock exchange announcement is also in their mind.

No doubt I will get a lot of negative comments but my advice is read the agreement before deciding whether it's a sale out.

we are the guys that have to live with this deal not the Division reps, or the Executive or the likes of Ward and Hayes ... keep that in mind Dingo ... and as for your incentive scheme .... have you forgotten about the last incentive scheme ?? .... they can f***ing ram it up their f***ing hole for all I care I have advised my colleagues to vote No cause it is a f***ing stinker

[clashcityrocker]

.... they can f***ing ram it up their f***ing hole for all I care I have advised my colleagues to vote No cause it is a f***ing stinker

Just don't put that as a reply on the PDA when they send you a message ............

[phil8211]

Gotta agree with godric its ok dingo sayin we need a reality check but people are actually workin themselves into an early grave top union men should get there arses in to delivery offices for a few weeks!

[thebiggestman]

You are talking absolute shite. You know there is no easier job than this for manual workers that pays the wages of this company. The reality check would be if all you half arsed idiiots had the courage of your convictions and looked for this great other job you so wonderfully wish for. This is a groundbreaking deal gained by any Union in the public sector and God help any of you "I don't really like it cos the manager speaks to me funny" merchants in another job. And obviously if it's that bad and things are going to get worse you need to stay in he Union for representation when you start failing. Get real if it's that bad I'm sure you can get to the National Brief next week and get your point across rather than the 3 usual who wouldn't be happy with a gold bar every week and just love the sound of their own voice!!!!