A few on here need a reality check

[UNION JACK]

Can some one please explain one of the Unions key issues pre agreement ,"A fairs days wage for a fair days work" The PEC is I understand dominated by non delivery officers .

The size of rounds we are doing now ,in reality just means one thing sickness levels are increasing all the time with many serious illness and injuries occurring in younger people .When will the Union wake up and see the size of rounds these days on a daily cycle is crazy and pushes up stress levels even higher.

A union that was concerned about their members would look at the size of the rounds and the affects on ill health .They could if they chose put a number of studies in place to look at this, but always like the Courier focus on Mail centre issues not delivery issues .

I am sure the senior RM management really like the present CWU Leaders ,and must be so grateful to them that they accept their recommendations .Many people in delivery's see this agreement ,just like the deal of the Century last time a complete failure to look at the real issues on delivery.

Its about time everybody on all sides at the top and went back to the floor for 2 weeks to understand the real issues!

[fishtank]

I am not shooting the messenger

It's pretty poor that you have to put that on a discussion forum and in red ink before you enter a debate.
I understand why you've done it but it's sad that you can't take an opposite view to someone without being accused of attacking the man.

[ClaretStevo]

my guess, some winners in London, as you go north there will be more and more people losing

[newtimes]

I am not shooting the messenger

It's pretty poor that you have to put that on a discussion forum and in red ink before you enter a debate.
I understand why you've done it but it's sad that you can't take an opposite view to someone without being accused of attacking the man.

That's the down side of this type of forum, how we understand what is written. My reason why I did this was to high light that I was not attacking the poster for what he has written from the very beginning of my post, but the context of what was written, printed. If I have offended anyone for the way I have put it, I wish to applogise for any offensive I may have caused. I repeat what I just said, I did it that way to make it totally clear from the start that I was not attacking the poster for saying what he said, but the context, Just like I have no problems at your post as you are just replying to how you have interpreted my post. Just like entering into a written agreement, whats written is worthless unless there is a meeting of the minds, whats written down can be pulled apart by another person. The meeting of the minds is far greater than written words.

[gashead-postie]

dingo thanks for trying to clarify a few things while were still waiting for the cwu to actually tell us anything about this deal

ive been on delivery for well over a decade now and seen all the changes since the way backward agreement in 96

(still havnt actually met anyone yet who voted for that )

turkeys don't vote for xmas do they

as for delivery span 3.5 should be the max if only for health and safety reasons alone..ive seen a lot of my friends leave over the last few years because they physically cant cope anymore with the demands

[clashcityrocker]

as for delivery span 3.5 should be the max ....

And we would become a predominantly part-time workforce.

[gashead-postie]

as for delivery span 3.5 should be the max ....

And we would become a predominantly part-time workforce.

well there has to be a answer somewhere to this mess..in my office alone there is 3 people out with stress and 2 of those have lost the plot ...and I would say roughly another 25-30 are on the edge and looking like falling off the cliff as well

[fishtank]

as for delivery span 3.5 should be the max ....

And we would become a predominantly part-time workforce.

I don't think that can necessarily be seen as something that can be avoided or something that means any amount of outdoor workload is acceptable.
Maybe limiting the delivery span to 3.5 hrs is possibly a step too far but certainly 4 hrs on a standard 7.48 hr day is not something that should increase the need for a higher part-time mix.
Taking into account travelling time,end of delivery tasks and meal relief a 4 hr span would leave approx 2 and a half hours of indoor time which given a 75:25 mix of part-time and full-time is pretty much bang on.
Spans longer than 4 hrs should have been limited to duty patterns like the 4 day week and the 9 day fortnight.

Allowing RM to have a flexible span has meant that as efficiency in offices has increased and it has to be said also bad practice so the scope for outdoor work and lapsing has increased.
To have a 60 year old member attempting 5 hrs of delivery in all weathers sometimes up and down tenements is quite frankly ridiculous whether it protects full-time jobs or not.

[Brain Fury]

as for delivery span 3.5 should be the max ....

And we would become a predominantly part-time workforce.

I don't think that can necessarily be seen as something that can be avoided or something that means any amount of outdoor workload is acceptable.
Maybe limiting the delivery span to 3.5 hrs is possibly a step too far but certainly 4 hrs on a standard 7.48 hr day is not something that should increase the need for a higher part-time mix.
Taking into account travelling time,end of delivery tasks and meal relief a 4 hr span would leave approx 2 and a half hours of indoor time which given a 75:25 mix of part-time and full-time is pretty much bang on.
Spans longer than 4 hrs should have been limited to duty patterns like the 4 day week and the 9 day fortnight.

Allowing RM to have a flexible span has meant that as efficiency in offices has increased and it has to be said also bad practice so the scope for outdoor work and lapsing has increased.
To have a 60 year old member attempting 5 hrs of delivery in all weathers sometimes up and down tenements is quite frankly ridiculous whether it protects full-time jobs or not.

Interesting post. However, in my opinion the future is likely to be about a greater proportion of working time spent on delivery. I think this means deciding whether to accept longer delivery spans (probably averaging more than 5 hours) or an increase in part-time jobs. I don't think you can have it both ways.

[halfull]

as for delivery span 3.5 should be the max ....

And we would become a predominantly part-time workforce.

other than london thats what we are already

[halfull]

Lets be clear lots of reps and members are frustrated with the lack of Comms and details of the agreement.

My own opinion is that in these days of different options for most carriers and big posters the threat of a strike is often more of a threat then the actual strike. years ago we would go out on strike and return to work and still have all the Mail we started with. Not anymore , there are over 20 major other parcels carriers along with the major suppliers from the internet like Amazon. The CWU were right to use the threat but the continued extensions overplayed our hand and the threat of a strike became an idle threat as the pause meant many members would be difficult to now get out if strike action was called as they had believe there would be a deal.

The CWU negotiators believed they have got a very good deal , which no other company in the UK has given to any union following a share offering or privatisation. It is legally binding and therefore has been written by lawyers which unless your a legally trained individual needs to be explained by the same lawyers to what each section means in lay terms. But it covers the normal threats from privatisation , no break up of the company , no franchising a real threat , no outsourcing an even bigger threat , no two tier workforce.

Other then MPs the pay rise on offer is the best one around of a unionised workforce.

Pensions is subject to a separate deal including some improvements for the scheme set up for new recruits after 2008.

On workplace issues yes there is a new process for dealing with Mail Centre , RDCs and Voc closures. There also a joint statement on the outstanding Mail centre and RDC Voc Closures.

Now on delivery there is an agreement which will review the problems of delivery offices. But let's be clear if anyone is expecting the review to return delivery working to pre methods , job and finish , no absorption and a 3.5 hour delivery span is living in dreamland.

The solutions in delivery are not the same as they were pre 2007. Parcels are growing and so are the advertising mails both unaddressed and addressed. Traffic is not the same during the year but the amount of reserves and walks are which is why you have lapsing. Unless we tackle this then the problems with continue and I understands there will be incentive. Schemes from April. Remember when absorption was first agreed staff got a share via the 50 / 50 scheme.

The review will cover all the issues and will have joint visits.

B&H is covered but if I am honest the only way we can ever eliminate B&H completely is if offices walk if they or any member are targeted.

my understanding is that all the amendments were accepted by the negotiators.

It should not surprise anyone that both parties want to publish it at the same time and for Royal Mail the stock exchange announcement is also in their mind.

No doubt I will get a lot of negative comments but my advice is read the agreement before deciding whether it's a sale out.

makes me sick to read most of this post, if this is how the agreement is then we are in the shitter in delivery! getting part of the savings from flexing is supposed to be an incentive? if one person is b&h we should all walkout? B&H is covered? What the hell does that mean? covered? It should have been the main thing for Christ sake! People are going off with stress & nerve issues taking medication to keep them calm & the unions answer is to "cover" B&H? OH MY GOD!!!!! people in delivery prepare for the deal of the millennium! dingo-you should take this post down in shame.

[chrisj]

B&H is covered but if I am honest the only way we can ever eliminate B&H completely is if offices walk if they or any member are targeted.

Have you really posted that!

I thought I was the only one alarmed by such a position from someone so senior in the Union. It simply does not make sense - advocating wild-cat strikes - it is so counter-productive to what the whole collective bargaining and being in a large Union is all about.

Unfortunately, this is not the first time that dingo has indicated that the lack of wildcat strikes or walking is part of the problems that some delivery offices face. He even called out people that criticise or have different opinions for not having the balls to walk.

I am often flabbergasted by dingo's tone in his posts - not classy at all. And the thread title is also patronising... I doubt many of the critics are actually advocating a job and knock and going back to the 90s ways of practice.

I suppose it will be easy to walk in an office where you have more than 200 members than one where you have 50 or less. In a small office, you always have people that are satisfied, some scared and some trouble makers and then non-union members - with such a mix, it will be hard to reach a consensus and even if people walk, it will be easy to target individuals afterwards.

Perhaps, we should ask what support is there from CWU for offices that go on wildcat strikes?

Finally, the hard rhetoric from the ballots on workplace issues is all so different to what we are hearing now - a big survey and go it alone is now the proposed solution.

[hans solo]

he is only advocating wildcat strikes because pec cwu and the rest of the gravy train have not got the balls to carry out legit official action
self interest here btw and corruption and compliance from cwu to their masters in rm and gvment
our supposed leaders are compromised and should resign

[Hitcher]

We mustn't forget that the union has told us time and again to 'do the job properly' only for the majority to carry on 'not doing the job properly' and then moan about the consequences - lapsing, etc.

[fishtank]

Interesting post. However, in my opinion the future is likely to be about a greater proportion of working time spent on delivery. I think this means deciding whether to accept longer delivery spans (probably averaging more than 5 hours) or an increase in part-time jobs. I don't think you can have it both ways.

I don't think you can either but speaking as a relatively fit 45 year old with 20 years delivery experience who does a 4hrs+ park&loop delivery every day I can tell you that deliveries averaging more than 5hrs are not physically sustainable for the majority of our older staff.

Perhaps that means....

a) A two tier delivery span or at least some kind of adjustment for age.

b) The business forces out older members and accepts that it's IHR and legal budget goes through the roof and the job becomes a young man's game...while their body holds out.

c) We end up with a large proportion of our staff on adjusted duties due to work related disabilities.

d) We accept a higher ratio of part-time staff.

None of the options are perfect but some of them are clearly unacceptable and only a and d could ever be official policy with "a" being difficult to implement and very divisive...which leaves us with...d.
Sometimes you have to sacrifice protecting the job in order to protect jobs but sometimes the opposite applies.There is no point in having a full-time job if you can't physically do it.