Union agrees yet another extension

[dvbuk55]

The main issue is that there are too many now holding senior positions for far too long and you have to wonder who the hell keep voting these people in and why? .

Well it's been said more than once that officials should only be elected no more than twice consecutively ensuring they hold the post no more than 4 years. That ensures that new blood is elected who is aware of the current situation and the old blood returns to the shop floor to become familiar with the situation as is and not briefed by some sycophant who wants to be considered as "one of the good old boys".

As to how they are continually voted in, well it's not difficult if no one stands against you because you are re-elected by default. I think some of these people see their position as an alternative career path within the union structure and THAT becomes their aim rather than the aims of the members.

Unit reps of course are excepted from this ruling because they are more than familiar with the here and now and in fact would be suitable for a full time post in a pro tem role. It would ensure a certain continuity in the dealings with the employer at local level.

[clashcityrocker]

What a load of bollocks.
You would constantly have in charge of negotiations people with little or no experience of conducting such negotiations while competent people would be prevented from standing if they had already served their 2 terms.
And how many unit reps are "elected" by default because nobody stood against them?

[fishtank]

You would constantly have in charge of negotiations people with little or no experience of conducting such negotiations...

There has to be a balance between knowing how to negotiate and knowing what you are negotiating about.Negotiators don't have to be on the shop floor,those are usually national officers anyway who don't work for Royal Mail but their source of information they base those negotiations on has to be credible and relevant.

Is the information being fed to our negotiators from full-release Branch Officials and Area Reps mostly based in large units like Mail Centres credible and relevant to deliveries?

[chrisj]

Very good debate: this is just the same thing that we have in National Politics (and to some extent football management and chief execs of multinationals). It is the same people in charge even if the party changes or they change employments.

Politics is better served in my opinion if there is a fixed term of office; it helps with regeneration and apathy and most of all it creates an impression that everyone has a chance and that no one is indispensable.

Fish is right about the negotiators: CWU is not only about Royal Mail - there are other big companies so the people at the top represent all and they are briefed just like it happens with Government ministers or PM that cannot have full knowledge of or has expertise in everything.

BTW, fixed terms does not mean the same people cannot come back into office after a term's break. That used to happen in American Presidential elections but not so much these days because there is more money and influence to be made or have as an ex-President.

[clashcityrocker]

There has to be a balance between knowing how to negotiate and knowing what you are negotiating about.

But if you don't know what you are negotiating about, any deal you present to the members will be rejected surely?

[dvbuk55]

What a load of bollocks.
You would constantly have in charge of negotiations people with little or no experience of conducting such negotiations while competent people would be prevented from standing if they had already served their 2 terms.
And how many unit reps are "elected" by default because nobody stood against them?

No what you would have is people who was aware of what the issues are and who knew their role had a time limit and had a broader base of knowledge to call on.Tell me how difficult you think negotiating is for people who are grounded and who are reasonably competent in their own right and who could call upon those previous incumbents, who haven't disappeared into the ether, for any background into whatever issue is up for discussion.

Well you see clash that is one of the issues that needs to be addressed, should an election take place when there isn't any competition? I believe unit reps are a separate issue because it is actually the unit that knows the man/woman personally and knows how effective he/she is in dealing with the unit issues.

[dvbuk55]

There has to be a balance between knowing how to negotiate and knowing what you are negotiating about.

But if you don't know what you are negotiating about, any deal you present to the members will be rejected surely?

Oh I don't know it happened not too long ago as I recall by what we would term as professional negotiators.

[fishtank]

But if you don't know what you are negotiating about, any deal you present to the members will be rejected surely?

In the mind of most members the financial aspects of any agreement far outweigh any negative issues based on workload,especially if those negative aspects are shrouded in technical terms and downplayed.

The only way an agreement is rejected is if a majority or significant minority of Branches campaign against it.
Since that again relies on Branch Officials,Divisional and Area Reps then the chances of the membership alone directing the path of an agreement are very slim.

[dvbuk55]

BTW, fixed terms does not mean the same people cannot come back into office after a term's break. That used to happen in American Presidential elections but not so much these days because there is more money and influence to be made or have as an ex-President.

Absolutely! The experience is not lost and there is a broader base to choose from at each election over a period of time. Not that there's anything for the chatterers to worry about because I am sure they will defend their position to the last. For the union to accept that modernisation was needed for the company to progress and that savings needed to be made they seem reluctant to embrace savings and modernisation themselves.

[Martin Walsh]

One major issue with indivduals not being allowed to stand for more one term , is that the national officers have a contract of employments. The lead negotiators are the officers , one is appointed the rest are elected. The officers who are elected all had to resign their employment from either Royal Mail or Post Office LTD on election.

Do you really think you would be able to get good indivduals who would stand if after 5 years they did not have a job as they could not stand for election to their own postion.

No other union operates in the way you suggest.

No if you are talking about the executive then the RMT do have a year between there term when they return to their job but we do not have a que of people who wish to stand for the PEC so would this really work.

Sometimes you do wish those who are always so critical of the union negotiators had an opportunity then sometimes you read their posts and you hear how terrible it is in their offices and you realise that if that is what they stand for in their own offices without striking then perhaps we best not having them negotiate for the UK.

[fishtank]

I don't think it relates to the national officers dingo but we do have to find a better way to keep the branches relevant and ensure that young activists don't see our flawed democratic system as a brick wall.The average age of Branch Officials and Area Reps is creeping upwards as is the length of time they've been away from the coal face.

That isn't a good long term position for any of us,It's all well and good saying the membership vote for them but with an increasingly apathetic membership what tends to happen is those occupying the largest power base have a natural advantage and anyone trying to stand against them has to move around the smaller units trying to drum up support.

I think there is an argument for refreshing the faces at Branch level on a regular basis,that kind of democracy will naturally feed through the whole union.

[dvbuk55]

I knew it would rattle their cages if it looked like they'd have to work for a living.

[dvbuk55]

No if you are talking about the executive then the RMT do have a year between there term when they return to their job but we do not have a que of people who wish to stand for the PEC so would this really work.

Well that might be because there isn't the opportunity, what about Div and Area Reps do they need to have that position for life or do you think they might like job sharing? Are they unique do you think in their ability. You show your ignorance of deliveries when you speak of offices taking action - you see hundreds of offices have 50/50 ratios and less and fewer union members and fewer union members who don't think the union is effective, because if it was they would have no need for unilateral action.

[Cut Off King]

Do we have any news about the progression of the talks, are we there yet ?

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk you say I have ingnroance of delivery issues ! I deal with delivery issues every single day , resourcing issues , flex issues , executive action , unfforical walk outs , the unagreed use of the neighbour delivery issues , Christmas arrangements , revisons , the recruitment of part timers without use of the stoke agreement , revisons , the new fad of the blue line leave spread , the unagreed use of the 30 minute flex , MTSF issues arsing from revisons , attempting to make permanent FTCs , issues arising of the attendance procedure along with any other issues in deliveries.

Oh also I have to deal with Mail centre issues , collection best praticise , the issues in the London Airport Mail unit involved in the international review , we have a proposal for a closure of the VOC and RDC and also CIT unit issues including their strike action.

We also have to deal with the Comms and meetings of area reps ect.

Some do it better than others but lets not forget its a role which most people don't desire for a number of reasons the hours are long and the travelling is boring and it plays murders with relationships.

But hey it's easy behind a keyboard to criticise much harder to do the job in the way everyone wants and sadly the job involves telling the members sometimes what they don't want to hear .