Union agrees yet another extension

[Cut Off King]

It is recognised that this new service may involve some extended delivery as a consequence of delivering to alternative addresses and this should be dealt with using normal local procedures, extended delivery time resulting from delivering to a neighbour should be recorded as such.

The new service will also be subject to quarterly review where we will be able to assess the operational impact the new service has had on delivery times, enquiry offices, redeliveries and complaints.

So, what happened to the quarterly review ? Or was that kicked into the long grass too ?

[Cut Off King]

Cut off king that is not what I am saying at all. There is a deal done on pensions and will be subject to a seperate ballot of the membership ! How is that kicking pensions into the long grass?

Now I think fish has already said it we have agreements on so many issues in delivery yet we have managers not abiding by them , reps not abiding them and members not adhering to them.

Not every office has problems and not every area has the same problems. Now as of today there is still no agreement on delivery. Can anyone tell us what upfront you want on deliveries ?

Perhaps we finally consult the 95 000 members who are on delivery to identify what their concerns are and attempt to tackle them against the backdrop that Royal Mail parcels strategy.

Maybe I'mm being a little dim witted, but I'm struggling to decipher your answer, are you telling me that you will consult the 95000 delivery members about their treatment via a survey BEFORE the CWU signs an agreement, address these issues with RM and conclude a deal, or as I suspect the CWUHQ will sign up to a deal, and at a later date , look at dealing with delivery members concerns ?
PS- A big phat ££££ sweetener will help push the deal through WITHOUT having to deal with the underlying issues
PPS - If all else fails, a REPS roadshow will help push through a long-grass deal.

[phil8211]

As much as the union maybe trying to sort out the b+h etc in offices I'd be suprised if in 12 months time we all aren't still talkin about too much workload, chaotic lapsing, b+h in offices royal mail dont give a toss about there staff sadly its all about making £££££!!!

[tasam]

I'm still amazed that deliveries are a problem. You go in on time and finish on time and that's it. Unless you are a genuine piss-taker they can't do anything about it, as, if you do the job by the book, using the supplied equipment, the majority of post-revision rounds are un-achievable, which is why managers never test them!

That's when the B&H starts - usually subtlety, the 50 or so snide comments about being slow, never working docket or just implications of being lazy. For really unlucky staff their P&L partner will continue the treatment. After long enough most people will just cave in - it's hard to stand your ground when no one else will.

Most people will take the course of least resistance.

Remember that the minority in deliveries are those who do the job properly.

[RTP]

It is recognised that this new service may involve some extended delivery as a consequence of delivering to alternative addresses and this should be dealt with using normal local procedures, extended delivery time resulting from delivering to a neighbour should be recorded as such.

The new service will also be subject to quarterly review where we will be able to assess the operational impact the new service has had on delivery times, enquiry offices, redeliveries and complaints.

So, what happened to the quarterly review ? Or was that kicked into the long grass too ?

OPG's haven't been putting delivery to neighbour down on the overtime dockets when it's been done, just probably put down extended delivery so it never happened. Same with the trails.

I mean how hard is it to set up a proper live trail and argue the point. It's been well over a year now since this was introduced, but we've got nowhere apart from most not bothering, because they don't have the time and others trying and then getting harassed for booking. Then we get to xmas and suddenly it's really important to try your best to deliver to neighbour again. Wouldn't have anything to do with the callers offices being at busting point . Oh no.

[Silly Sarah]

I'm still amazed that deliveries are a problem. You go in on time and finish on time and that's it. Unless you are a genuine piss-taker they can't do anything about it, as, if you do the job by the book, using the supplied equipment, the majority of post-revision rounds are un-achievable, which is why managers never test them!

That's when the B&H starts - usually subtlety, the 50 or so snide comments about being slow, never working docket or just implications of being lazy. For really unlucky staff their P&L partner will continue the treatment. After long enough most people will just cave in - it's hard to stand your ground when no one else will.

Most people will take the course of least resistance.

Remember that the minority in deliveries are those who do the job properly.

Sad but true. I've workded in a DO where the majority came in early, didn't use the correct equipment or claim o/t. New recruits on short term contracts had little option but to follow suit. Union knew this was going on but were unwilling/unable to remedy it.

[britwrit]

Sorry, a little OT, but now they're just getting cocky...

Christmas posting dates announced: http://home.bt.com/lifestyle/christmas/ ... 3853038534

[FinishOnTime]

Cut off king that is not what I am saying at all. There is a deal done on pensions and will be subject to a seperate ballot of the membership ! How is that kicking pensions into the long grass?

Now I think fish has already said it we have agreements on so many issues in delivery yet we have managers not abiding by them , reps not abiding them and members not adhering to them.

Not every office has problems and not every area has the same problems. Now as of today there is still no agreement on delivery. Can anyone tell us what upfront you want on deliveries ?

Perhaps we finally consult the 95 000 members who are on delivery to identify what their concerns are and attempt to tackle them against the backdrop that Royal Mail parcels strategy.

Right I'll start again then with just one this time,

Deliver to neighbour time built in to duties. Is it going to happen and if so how is going to be done, when is it going to be done and will RM revisit all revisions to make it happen?

RM have already said that in their trials delivering to neighbour adds no time to a delivery. It was in the courier when it first started.

IMO it's simple, until RM stop lying (because what they are saying is physically impossible) I won't be delivering to any neighbours whatsoever.

Not only Delivery to Neighbour, our DOM has officially claimed that using trolleys doesn't take any more time than bag on the shoulder, and if used correctly, takes less. He says RM have done the tests to prove this. Of course, this is then used as another stick with which to beat the people who do the job 'properly'.

Any official position on this?

[Desperate_Dan]

Can anyone tell us what upfront you want on deliveries ?

Royal Mail make it a company wide rule that people cannot start before their time and managers have to enforce it. Period.

Achievable workload. Not one based on model weeks that are the lightest in any calendar year.

An end to lapsing/absorption, practically daily with pressure being applied to do the lapsing before you've started your own delivery.

Some areas have been on Park and loop for 3 years and will have seen an increase in parcels/D2D's but you can bet they'll have been no adjustments made to their duties to compensate. The only adjustments will have been more pressure from managers to work faster in and out doors to complete and save on docket.

A limit to how long we can safely be out walking the streets not just short term but long term. No more of this 'enabler' that was in the BT2010 agreement and has lead to people being out walking the streets for up to 6 hours. Most OPG's knew that 3.5 hours on the way forward was hard enough but now we are daily pushing 4.5 hours its getting unbearable to do week in week out.

An end to micro management. We are not working in a production line environment were a manger knows precisely beforehand what the daily workload is. We can't even get correct figures in from the MC's even with all this new super duper machinery so how can that be managed efficiently? This is were world class mail will fall dramatically on its rear end and OPG's will suffer massively yet again.

Oh and something slightly radical. Get the CWU heads and royal mails senior management out into the offices and onto the streets doing the job properly and let them see first hand how unachievable it is. That ones more of a pipe dream.

It really is as simple as the above yet you would think we were asking to feed a unicorn at the end of the rainbow.

[dvbuk55]

A separate vote on pensions now where have I heard that before oh yes it was when the pension issue was "de-coupled" last time the issue was on the table but I notice the word "de-couple" has not been used this time, the vote didn't happen then and we're going down the same route.

What are the lawyers doing? Well my guess is they are taking a crap deal and couching it in words that seem beneficial to the membership highlighting the potential financial reward probably using the share dividend from next July, the Christmas bonus , the 8.9% pay rise over three years - the thing is how many are going to be left in three years time.

[Martin Walsh]

Sugar and Dan is it really that simple ?

1. You want an agreement which stops people from starting before their time. What would that really achieve ? The reality is that the vast majority of people start before their time because they want to make that time at the end of their duty. Now if it's to protect people being forced to start early in order to complete their delivery then we already have enough agreements including their contract of employment which stops the later from happening. If is happening and managers are ignoring this then we need to elevate it and take out a bullying and harassment complaint.

Now the simple fact is that there are 100 000 staff in deliveries and there is less than 1% of that figure that has taken out a B&H claim. That figure is still too high and needs to be resolved but let's be clear that not every office is the same. Whist there is regular complaints of B&H on here and it does exist there is outside a dispute under a 1000 regular posters on here.

On the model week why would you want to agree a light model week ? this means you have to flex up on most weeks and means your structural change is higher. Of course it also allows for management to save more money by not flexing up. Equally why would you agree a too high model week as you would on a lot of weeks have th capcity to absorb to remain at the revision EP.

It is best to have a model week in between the two postions. But it is about knowing your members and knowing their capicity to flex up ie overtime appetite or part timers to increase their hours.

Now we already have an agreement that says you should resource beaded on your revision EP and not in excess of that figure. How many office resource in excess and over an above the current national agreement.

In terms of an end to absorption , well to end this you would have to get Royal Mail to give up their mantra of staff working all the hours that individuals are paid for? This is something the company simpy won't do.

Now let's have a look at Royal Mail and the weekly and yearly fluctuation . Monday and Tuesdays are normally lighter on a lot of streams. From Wednesday it is normally the heaviest day with Thursday to Saturday at roughly the same level? Traffic normally peaks eat the end of the financial year and again Autumn pressure period and drops in the new year and summer periods. Christmas is often treated seperately due to closed leave periods etc.

Now we normally have a fixed amount of duties across the year along with a fixed amount of reserves and some offices even have a fixed amount of people off on leave. Quite simply the duty structure does not match the yearly traffic profile.

This is why in the summer when you have the same duty structure in place but less traffic the EP in your office drops and therefore to ensure the same performance level management will absorb duties. Where you have done an outdoor revision your walks will have been optimised and therefore you should only be able to do outdoor absorption if you get out earlier then your current on delivery time.

As for on the day absorption then that is outside of the current national agreement under pay and mod annex a & b.

Now in terms of your office who had a park and loop revision 3 years ago and now parcels and door to door has increased , well there was 3 months ago a nationally agreed post Implemtation revision procedure agreed which all offices who had revisons under the BT agreement should do.

Now you also mention you want a limit to the delivery span and suggested 3.5 hours. Well Royal Mail probably would love that solution as it would spell the end to full time jobs. How would you make up the rest of your day ? Mech has decreased the amount if time needed on IPS letters , the growth of packets and attendance calls do mean more time on delivery. If the span ans travel to and from the office took you up to 4 hours , how would a full timer make up the rest of his daily attendance. Equally we have loads of offices now on better than a 5 day attendance for whom a delivery span of 3.5 hours would mean they would have to cease this new attendance patterns.

When the 3.5 hour proposal was first agreed under the pay and major change agreement it was done on the grounds of job and finish , Royal Mail no longer agrees to that and requires every hour paid to be worked.

Now we have agreements covering all of the above already and do you really think getting some more will resolve the problem because either we are not adhering to them now or Royal Mail are not abiding by them or a combination of the two.

I do believe that we need to resolve the workload issue but it is a complex issues and some of us won't like the answer cause the same structural of walks throught the year will be reviewed or the hours worked over a bigger cycle of weeks will be in the mix.

Equally your last points the union wants an audit of offices on issues like absorption , d2d , the use of flex , the workload , bullying and a whole range of other issues. This would also include a members survey.

Now the reality is that there can be no hiding place on the results of the survey and we will then have a real office by office account of the issues in delivery.

Now if we cannot get the members up for a row if they don't tackle the issues then we have to go back to the members. Unlike some I believe that members will support this appoach and will support a new ballot if Royal Mail after the survey and office audit don't tackle the problems in delivery offices.

[dvbuk55]

In other words the new agreement is not going to address the problems in delivery because it's a sticking point - so wtf have they been discussing ffs. Is this survey the biggest survey the union has ever carried out but didn't, they rang a few stalwarts and then....................well nothing. So that's it then there's hardly any b&h, and there are enough existing agreements to sort out any difficulties, strange they haven't been sorted then but hey ho the new survey will highlight any problems. The same sort of arrangement that was to highlight the weak performing branch structure - well if it did what's happened. If it looks like a turd, smells like a turd then it is a turd. Nothing is agreed until EVERYTHING is agreed - well everything Royal Mail want to agree to that is.

If it's a free vote then vote NO or we'll end up with more BT2010 which was the "deal of the century" only this time it will be "ground breaking".

[clashcityrocker]

1. You want an agreement which stops people from starting before their time. What would that really achieve ?

Do the job properly would start at the beginning of the duty.
The work done before the official start time would not skew the office EP, and without an accurate assessment of an office's starting position then any revision is bound to fail.
It should also be coupled with no-one being allowed to go home earlier than their official finish time or start their overtime during their contracted hours.

[fishtank]

1. You want an agreement which stops people from starting before their time. What would that really achieve ? The reality is that the vast majority of people start before their time because they want to make that time at the end of their duty.

You already know the danger to full-time employment this practice brings so lets not suddenly pretend it's harmless fun.
Sometimes the union has to protect the members from themselves even if it does make you unpopular with your mates/voter base.

If the span ans travel to and from the office took you up to 4 hours , how would a full timer make up the rest of his daily attendance.

On a 5 day week with a 7.48 attendance there is little time for anything more than that anyway,especially in offices with a high number of part-timers.
Longer spans should have been limited to offices with 4 day weeks and high full-time ratios.
How difficult would it have been to draw up that agreement?

[knackeredjointsRUS]

Sorry, a little OT, but now they're just getting cocky...

Christmas posting dates announced: http://home.bt.com/lifestyle/christmas/ ... 3853038534

Unless something drastic is done in our delivery office at Xmas will be like the last 3 years....Parcels ( presents ) everywhere with no-one to take them. Customers stopping you in the street on Xmas eve pleading with you you have little timmy's present on you when you know it's more than likely sitting under the 100's of other parcels at the office