dvbuk55 wrote:Whatever the deal is, good (not likely) bad (more than likely) or indifferent I will vote NO.
You would vote NO on a good deal?
Well can I just paraphrase a well worn idiom "these are complex issues" and that is true, my thought process on the ballot is that regardless of the outcome it would in effect be a protest to the shambolic way the members have been used and abused by the union over these long drawn out negotiations. Long drawn because I believe that the union will present an agreement that the members have waited so long for that they will just agree thinking that to keep going is pointless. The truth of the matter is that whatever the issues if you have not achieved the objective you press on and if that means strike action, which the union have had a mandate for weeks they should pull the trigger.
I believe we should have called the action for the 26th and 28th of October and the 4th of November perhaps that would have brought Higson to the table sooner, either way it would have shown that the CWU was serious in the threat of action - now RM are laughing up their sleeve.
clashcityrocker wrote:But you only call for strike action if you believe you can deliver it and if you think it will achieve something.
Actually we called for strike action and didn't deliver and look where we are now - between a rock and a hard place so who can say what the outcome would have been if we had followed through with the threat, which has turned out be an idle threat.
clashcityrocker wrote:But you only call for strike action if you believe you can deliver it and if you think it will achieve something.
Why ballot the membership for strike action in the first place if they believed the aim was undeliverable and the achievement unattainable.
Well said.
The union has looked weak for ages now. After last weeks postponement, they became a laughing stock. If they extend again (definitely, positively the last chance, honest guv) then they might just as well shut up shop.
clashcityrocker wrote:But you only call for strike action if you believe you can deliver it and if you think it will achieve something.
Why ballot the membership for strike action in the first place if they believed the aim was undeliverable and the achievement unattainable.
Firstly because the threat of industrial action is in itself a powerful tool, and secondly you won't know the strength of feeling for IA until you have asked the membership.
It would seem both ballots have led to concessions, but not enough to secure a deal.
I don't think the problems in deliveries will go away overnight. I don't think strike action will change that.
Far better to consolidate the gains we already have and let the delivery talks continue before, during and after xmas if need be.
Because even with strike action, those talks will continue.
The societies of consumption and squandering of material resources are incompatible with the idea of economic growth and a clean planet.
clashcityrocker wrote:But you only call for strike action if you believe you can deliver it and if you think it will achieve something.
Why ballot the membership for strike action in the first place if they believed the aim was undeliverable and the achievement unattainable.
Firstly because the threat of industrial action is in itself a powerful tool, and secondly you won't know the strength of feeling for IA until you have asked the membership.
It would seem both ballots have led to concessions, but not enough to secure a deal.
I don't think the problems in deliveries will go away overnight. I don't think strike action will change that.
Far better to consolidate the gains we already have and let the delivery talks continue before, during and after xmas if need be.
Because even with strike action, those talks will continue.
You think that in jan royal mail will be as keen to talk and come to a deal?
Dec is the one time we can put max pressure on royal mail as well as amazon putting pressure on them to get it sorted in jan the pressure is gone and we've been f****d over yet again by a union leadership out of there depth, frozen by fear as what to do next.
I think the people that are most vindicated in all these are those that voted No originally and those ultra-militant that voted Yes for a strike not necessarily for a deal.
If we go back, some people here could not see any deal that will persuade them not to strike... they are perhaps right in the sense that RM could not be trusted
And those that voted No did not trust the Union enough to achieve that much - and were ready to accept what was on the table in the hope that it is better to prepare for a Real fight in the near future - as long as the 'No Strike' deal was not struck.
I am abstaining from voting on the Agreement because I was ready to accept the Old Deal and did not even think the Union were serious or had the balls to address the issues in 'Delivery' - they have and I have been quietly impressed - so it a gain gain all round - more money and a little bit of progress on Delivery but will not likely be enough.
My real anger and frustration lies with the members (and in a way the Union at large - not just the PEC): collectively the PEC and the members have not had the balls to think about the bigger picture - away from narrow and personal interests. No Agreement will solve that problem.
The only thing Clash is do we have those gains in the bag without an agreement on deliveries? Personally I cannot see Moya Greene agreeing to above inflation rises, terms and condition guarantees of 5 years renewable, without any preconditions.
As the previous joint statements have said. There is no agreement until everything has been agreed.
clashcityrocker wrote:But you only call for strike action if you believe you can deliver it and if you think it will achieve something.
Why ballot the membership for strike action in the first place if they believed the aim was undeliverable and the achievement unattainable.
Firstly because the threat of industrial action is in itself a powerful tool, and secondly you won't know the strength of feeling for IA until you have asked the membership.
It would seem both ballots have led to concessions, but not enough to secure a deal.
I don't think the problems in deliveries will go away overnight. I don't think strike action will change that.
Far better to consolidate the gains we already have and let the delivery talks continue before, during and after xmas if need be.
Because even with strike action, those talks will continue.
The reverse is also true though. Perhaps if the first strike opportunity had been carried out, it might have led to an agreement earlier, rather than the drawn out negotiations we have now. Royal Mail now know that the union will never strike, so they have no reason to back down. Strikes are only effective if the other side actually believes you will call one!
clashcityrocker wrote:The question is - what do we do now given the situation as it is.
It's pretty obvious the only sensible solution is to separate the delivery issues,put the rest of the deal to the membership and stop pretending that the threat of industrial action still has any validity.
Are we really going to call a strike over delivery issues only?
I don't think Royal Mail believes that for a second.
clashcityrocker wrote:The question is - what do we do now given the situation as it is.
It's pretty obvious the only sensible solution is to separate the delivery issues,put the rest of the deal to the membership and stop pretending that the threat of industrial action still has any validity.
Are we really going to call a strike over delivery issues only?
I don't think Royal Mail believes that for a second.
