normal moaners and groaners - what sell out ?

[Martin Walsh]

It never ceases to amaze me that some people come on here talking about a union sell out without even knowing the facts.

This are clearly the facts of what has happened.

Royal Mail have blinked first in this dispute !

1.Royal Mail had previously said that their pay offer was their final offer. Guess what it was not. In fact they have removed the strings. The pension changes , the no strike deal and the changes to working practices are no longer dependent on us accepting the pay offer. How can this be said to be a sell out ??

2. The pension proposals are now going to be decided by you in a separate ballot once the guarantees have been finalised. The membership getting a vote on pensions is hardly a sell out.

3. Royal Mail had previously said that a 3 year guarantee was their last offer. Now we know its 5 and without an end date. So are you saying this is a sell out ??

4. We are not going to ever agree a no strike deal or binding arbitration so how can this be a sell out.

5. All Divisional Reps were asked to give their views of how absorption is carried out and it was damming and this will feature in the negotiations. How is this a sell out.

6. A charter for workers and our terms and conditions. How is this a sell out.

Now we have not withdrawn a ballot and have to serve notice no later than 13th November if talks cannot resolve the issues which we need to. How is that a sell out. The aim was always the right agreement not a dispute for a strike sake.

So members without having to take a single seconds Industrial Action have achieved a better pay rise without strings , a separate pensions settlement and legal binding guarantees stopping outsourcing , franchising , a two tier workforce and protection of national agreements from a minimum of 5 years.

How can anyone suggest its a sell out based on the Joint Statement is anyones guess ?

[hubbahubba]

Some people revel in their misery,others just like to jump on the bandwagon.
As much as the 2010 agreement was a cop out,this is the unions chance to get us a deal worth giving a yes to.
Lets see the details before whining about sellouts and past failures...

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I have to say I am in full agreement with Dingo, we haven't seen the details yet but reading between the lines, I don't think RM have played the Union, or the opposite. However, the fact that RM did not try for an injunction over the less than 7 full days notice, but instead allowed and even supported the ballot extension was a MAJOR concession by them and one the leads to me think that Union are in a strong position and are playing their cards well.

However, we won't know who, if anyone, is playing games till the 13 November so lets hold our frustration and powder till then. There is no point in going off half cocked now, when we will need all the strength and solidarity possible if this does go all tits up. After 20 November and with Christmas more than looming the momentum and pressure will be with us - not Royal Mail.

[donein]

Some people revel in their misery,others just like to jump on the bandwagon.
As much as the 2010 agreement was a cop out,this is the unions chance to get us a deal worth giving a yes to.
Lets see the details before whining about sellouts and past failures...

well said bub

[stephenb19578]

Well put mate

[vmaxv4]

Nice post "Dingo"

[hertsman0]

I quite agree with you dingo

[meweavy]

I have to say I am in full agreement with Dingo, we haven't seen the details yet but reading between the lines, I don't think RM have played the Union, or the opposite. However, the fact that RM did not try for an injunction over the less than 7 full days notice, but instead allowed and even supported the ballot extension was a MAJOR concession by them and one the leads to me think that Union are in a strong position and are playing their cards well.

However, we won't know who, if anyone, is playing games till the 13 November so lets hold our frustration and powder till then. There is no point in going off half cocked now, when we will need all the strength and solidarity possible if this does go all tits up. After 20 November and with Christmas more than looming the momentum and pressure will be with us - not Royal Mail.

exactly,the worse thing royal mail would want is for us to go out over xmas,why would they stall this close to xmas?,
unless they do want to get a deal done and dusted.

[mailman71]

It never ceases to amaze me that some people come on here talking about a union sell out without even knowing the facts.

This are clearly the facts of what has happened.

Royal Mail have blinked first in this dispute !

1.Royal Mail had previously said that their pay offer was their final offer. Guess what it was not. In fact they have removed the strings. The pension changes , the no strike deal and the changes to working practices are no longer dependent on us accepting the pay offer. How can this be said to be a sell out ??

2. The pension proposals are now going to be decided by you in a separate ballot once the guarantees have been finalised. The membership getting a vote on pensions is hardly a sell out.

3. Royal Mail had previously said that a 3 year guarantee was their last offer. Now we know its 5 and without an end date. So are you saying this is a sell out ??

4. We are not going to ever agree a no strike deal or binding arbitration so how can this be a sell out.

5. All Divisional Reps were asked to give their views of how absorption is carried out and it was damming and this will feature in the negotiations. How is this a sell out.

6. A charter for workers and our terms and conditions. How is this a sell out.

Now we have not withdrawn a ballot and have to serve notice no later than 13th November if talks cannot resolve the issues which we need to. How is that a sell out. The aim was always the right agreement not a dispute for a strike sake.

So members without having to take a single seconds Industrial Action have achieved a better pay rise without strings , a separate pensions settlement and legal binding guarantees stopping outsourcing , franchising , a two tier workforce and protection of national agreements from a minimum of 5 years.

How can anyone suggest its a sell out based on the Joint Statement is anyones guess ?

Dingo we have moaners like that in our office,if the union got us a grand a week wages and a two day week they would still moan.

[cloherty1976]

Dingo we have moaners like that in our office,if the union got us a grand a week wages and a two day week they would still moan.

Absolutely great point and so true

[dvbuk55]

Dingo we have moaners like that in our office,if the union got us a grand a week wages and a two day week they would still moan.

Hmmmmm I remember the furore after the hold on IA in 2009 when the "Interim Agreement" was put into operation and a certain poster declared "The Deal of the Century"............well unbeknownst to us it must have been the 18th Century. I don't want to hear what has been achieved because nothing has been achieved until an agreement has been signed and the advantages to the membership have been clearly and simply spelled out. As it stands what we have is two weeks of further talks and that is the sum total of 6 months of talks, a consultative ballot and an industrial action ballot.

As for the thousand and two day week - would that be two days every week?

[fishtank]

Although I agree with the general sentiment and there are of course the serial moaners who will complain about anything there is also genuine concern among the membership that the business is stalling for time.
That concern is there through experience,we've been here before.

The timescale for resolution is short,there is no time for messing about,At the first sign that Royal Mail are not serious we have to re-instate Industrial Action.
Royal Mail has undoubtedly moved position but nothing has been won yet.

[chrisj]

I think it is rather unfair to have a big dig at folks when the information is not out there for them to make 'informed' opinions - one way or the other. The poster actually stressed that fact... Who's fault is it then?

Furthermore, people are right to be sceptical based on past experiences... We can all probably agree that things will always be better with a Union than none but the Grangemouth fiasco should give some pause for thought. Intimidation your employer whilst you are trying to negotiate with them is beyond me - how can that not be illegal especially when they are doing this outside of the work place or outside of organised rallies??

Lastly, as the last poster indicated, 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating'... How much better off will folks be and how can we be sure that the employer will not seek to compensate for their additional expense by demanding more productive, sneaking in excessive workload, harassment, bullying and/or worse?

How much will the pay rise be for the first year and how much more than £300 will it be?

Calculators at the ready?

* The issue of a no-strike deal is a Red-herring. When was the last time we went on strike? 2009 - more than 4 years ago. The new agreement is up for review in 5 years and they will both sign a consensual deal (hand-bags rather than a real fight) - so there is unlikely going to be a strike in 5 years anyway.

Even with a 5 year T&C guarantee, it will be naive for anyone to think the business will not change in 5 years and some of the changes will affect some sections and/or all of us negatively. I do not see RM getting the consent of the Union for every radical business decisions.

** We also have to add the unknown factors of the the USO, The Regulator and Competitors and perhaps EU regulations.

[chrisj]

Who are the normal moaners? And who are the abnormal ones. (Usual moaners?)

The reason why I mentioned Grangemouth is that we should be aware that the Union sometimes has its own agenda and sometimes they make mistakes or go about things the wrong way.

In addition, the members also have different agenda and look for different things in what has been billed as a Grand encompassing 'Agreement'. Some might be keen on the money side, some more on the Pension, some on workload, some on bullying and harassment and so on...

[Cut Off King]

Maybe the CWU should be asking why there are so many members who have such little faith in the union ?