Now we REALLY look like the bad guys/gals ...

[Zootsuit]

I don't know why everybody keeps bringing Grangemouth up.
It isn't remotely like the position we're facing and even if it was that should make members more determined to get as strong a deal as possible to protect ourselves for as long as possible from exactly what is happening there.

I don't know why people don't understand references to Grangemouth. It's obvious that the position is not the same, that's not the point. The point is that a union took on an employer with threats of strike action. The employer destroyed the union's threats with a knockout blow that has forced that union to accept the original terms of the employers 'deal' (notwithstanding the opinion that they want to close it down anyway). If I were sitting in a boardroom right now as a company director I might be suggesting that we take a punt at truly testing the resolve of the workforce as a whole.

As discussed on other threads, those of us who place faith in our union to deliver a world beating gold plated cast iron deal on pay pensions terms and conditions that beats the now defunct 3 year deal are, I think, deluded. Royal Mail may just feel that this is the time to take a hit and sort things out once and for all. It may need to prove to its investors that it will not be held hostage by the union any more.

If we had a new ballot asking us whether we were prepared to take strike action for weeks on end I bet the turn out would be higher and the majority vote would be no.

I reckon the days of hairy arsed chest thumping wrestling matches between employers and unions are as out dated as Analogue phones and valve driven tellys. It's time to fight smarter, not harder. The miners stuck to it through thick and thin. Good effort, well done. Nothing to show for it though. They didn't believe they were as vulnerable as they turned out to be. Neither did the guys at Grangemouth. I hope the faith in industrial action of some on these pages is well founded because it may not be the guys who don't want to strike that regret their actions, it may well be those beating the strike drum the loudest.

Fingers crossed for a grown up, well considered proposal from Royal Mail and a grown up, well considered response from the CWU. I'll be in London on 4 Nov if that doesn't happen. I won't cross a picket line if it goes on. I just hope it doesn't.

[2pints]

My view that striking is pointless was never going to be popular with the forum warriors on here but hey ho that is life.If you lot seriously think it will benefit us or the company in any way then in my opinion you are delusional.

[WHITEANT]

Like I said ATTENTION SEEKER !! enjoy your driving on the 4th nov

[mailman71]

What happened in Grangemouth was a disgrace,1 person holding a country to ransom and forcing the union to capitulate with a gun at their head.
For years in Royal Mail our wages were poor compared to other unskilled jobs but the union has managed to get us a decent wage in the last 6 years or so through fighting and industrial action to get where we are,does anybody think Royal Mail would have given us these terms and conditions without a fight.
Anyone reading the new pay deal can see that they can in their words revisit the 2nd and 3 rd years of the deal if they want to ie they will give you no increase if they can think up a reason not to.
Every company in the public or private sector is thinking up ways to keep wages down so in my opinion the union are quite justified in calling for industrial action so we can get a deal that worth what's written in it.

[Postie_since_1989]

My view that striking is pointless was never going to be popular with the forum warriors on here but hey ho that is life.If you lot seriously think it will benefit us or the company in any way then in my opinion you are delusional.

So when those of us members who have obtained-as we will-improvements on the last offer made by Royal Mail, are you proposing to make good to charity or whatever the benefits you will receive from others sacrifices?

[arnold cheshire]

My view that striking is pointless was never going to be popular with the forum warriors on here but hey ho that is life.If you lot seriously think it will benefit us or the company in any way then in my opinion you are delusional.

So when those of us members who have obtained-as we will-improvements on the last offer made by Royal Mail, are you proposing to make good to charity or whatever the benefits you will receive from others sacrifices?

why do you say that 2 pints didnt say he was going to be a strike breaker did he .

[krussel]

My view that striking is pointless was never going to be popular with the forum warriors on here but hey ho that is life.If you lot seriously think it will benefit us or the company in any way then in my opinion you are delusional.

So when those of us members who have obtained-as we will-improvements on the last offer made by Royal Mail, are you proposing to make good to charity or whatever the benefits you will receive from others sacrifices?

why do you say that 2 pints didnt say he was going to be a strike breaker did he .

He did not say it in so many words but the nature of the post does strongly suggest he feels that way.

[fishtank]

The point is that a union took on an employer with threats of strike action. The employer destroyed the union's threats with a knockout blow that has forced that union to accept the original terms of the employers 'deal' (notwithstanding the opinion that they want to close it down anyway). If I were sitting in a boardroom right now as a company director I might be suggesting that we take a punt at truly testing the resolve of the workforce as a whole.

The major difference and what makes the Ineos case unusual in industrial relations situations is that the company is more or less owned by one person.That makes it a very dangerous negotiating position because first of all you are dealing with an ego on a personal level whose entire career has been built on an image of confrontation and not backing down and secondly you are dealing with someone who can make instant decisions and take any financial hit personally without the need to worry about their job security.

When a union is faced with this negotiation scenario of course it has to change its tactics and of course it has to be cautious but that doesn't mean that the whole union movement has to start grovelling because of an isolated Grangemouth scenario.

Royal Mail is not in the driving seat like Ineos,they have both outside and internal pressures to consider,they cannot shut individual units down and move them elsewhere and they are forced through our national strength to bargain on a national level with 115,000 employees not 800.

If I were a Royal Mail Director I would be sitting in the boardroom sensibly discussing the options for a negotiated compromise settlement that meets the aspirations of all parties not getting all turned on about taking on and destroying a union that you will ultimately need if you are to deliver a well run,profitable company that has any kind of sustainable future.

[Tman]

If I were a Royal Mail Director I would be sitting in the boardroom sensibly discussing the options for a negotiated compromise settlement that meets the aspirations of all parties not getting all turned on about taking on and destroying a union that you will ultimately need if you are to deliver a well run,profitable company that has any kind of sustainable future.

Fair point, but given some of the senseless/crass/unbelievably stupid decisions made by RM over the last twenty years can/do you trust them to do the right thing now?
Why assume they think they will "need" a union to run a profitable company? Many of the FTSE100 companies have little or no union representation (and don't tend to hold national strike ballots every few years) a point which won't have escaped them, surely?
Their track record on "sensible discussions" really ain't that great...

[flaminmoses]

because the share price rocketed the cwu hold all the aces now.

royal mail will basically have to put on hold any ideas they had of eroding t's and c's because the company is in a very strong "position".

strike whilst the iron is hot and secure a deral which wont be easily touched int he next 5-7 years....imo


striking is always the best tool against greedy *****

[vmaxv4]

The point is that a union took on an employer with threats of strike action. The employer destroyed the union's threats with a knockout blow that has forced that union to accept the original terms of the employers 'deal' (notwithstanding the opinion that they want to close it down anyway). If I were sitting in a boardroom right now as a company director I might be suggesting that we take a punt at truly testing the resolve of the workforce as a whole.

The major difference and what makes the Ineos case unusual in industrial relations situations is that the company is more or less owned by one person.That makes it a very dangerous negotiating position because first of all you are dealing with an ego on a personal level whose entire career has been built on an image of confrontation and not backing down and secondly you are dealing with someone who can make instant decisions and take any financial hit personally without the need to worry about their job security.

When a union is faced with this negotiation scenario of course it has to change its tactics and of course it has to be cautious but that doesn't mean that the whole union movement has to start grovelling because of an isolated Grangemouth scenario.

Royal Mail is not in the driving seat like Ineos,they have both outside and internal pressures to consider,they cannot shut individual units down and move them elsewhere and they are forced through our national strength to bargain on a national level with 115,000 employees not 800.

If I were a Royal Mail Director I would be sitting in the boardroom sensibly discussing the options for a negotiated compromise settlement that meets the aspirations of all parties not getting all turned on about taking on and destroying a union that you will ultimately need if you are to deliver a well run,profitable company that has any kind of sustainable future.

Another factor with Grangemouth that cannot be ignored, Is the politics from behind the scene's.
The independence question was always looming as soon as the decision to close the Petrochem plant & news reports that the rest of the facility would face the same demise. The SNP were about to have there dreams holed below the waterline with no means of supplying an independent nation with fuel. Alex Salmond was looking at the prospect if he did pull it off!, having then going to the UK Gov cap in hand begging for fuel. With the prospect of our chancellor banging an additional tax for whatever reason these clowns could dream of...
If you think these factors were in play at the time...Then the Unite union hadn't a chance of coming out of this looking like winners.....

[silly suffolk]

Vive la Mort
Vive la Guerre
Vive la sacre mercaniere

were you in the legion with me?

[fishtank]

Why assume they think they will "need" a union to run a profitable company? Many of the FTSE100 companies have little or no union representation (and don't tend to hold national strike ballots every few years) a point which won't have escaped them, surely?

It's not a given,nothing is but if you have a large organisation that more or less does the same thing everywhere the best way to communicate with your staff is through a decent relationship with a national union.
Royal Mail have tried to bypass that with various communication tools in the last few years and basically they've all been a disaster.
Of course there's a balance that needs to be struck between company mouthpiece and militant pain in the arse but I think at the moment Royal Mail would rather deal with one national union than be constantly putting out fires all over the place.That might change in the future though.

[spiderj]

I am a worker
Always have been
Been following orders most of my life in one way or another
Never before have I felt like going on a refusal

After my limited time in this company and witnessing the
Tactics managers will use to get mail out

I fear the future .....but I'll get another job

So will the manager

However.........

On my dying day I'll be able to look back and say

I served but was never servile

Don't know how relevant this is to the thread but I had to say it.
I'll be on the gate
I'll also listen to all arguments
But at the end of the day


Its only a job

[krussel]

I am a worker
Always have been
Been following orders most of my life in one way or another
Never before have I felt like going on a refusal

After my limited time in this company and witnessing the
Tactics managers will use to get mail out

I fear the future .....but I'll get another job

So will the manager

However.........

On my dying day I'll be able to look back and say

I served but was never servile

Don't know how relevant this is to the thread but I had to say it.
I'll be on the gate
I'll also listen to all arguments
But at the end of the day


Its only a job

Good post.

It is just a job but for some, like me that have 20+ years it has become a way of life.

I don't want to see it thrown away on the way to a min wage.