How much can you afford to lose in wages?

[mailman71]

Anyone in this job over 20 years plus must realise by now situations like this come round every few years. The only problem this time for our union and members, is that this is the last chance saloon for negotiating any sort of long term deal for our terms and conditions. Were now in the private sector and in the years to come any deals will be placed beside what the competitors are paying their staff. If anyone reading this ( potential strike breakers included) ever wondered what the hell the CWU ever done for them and their T&C's inquire what are TNT and DHL competitors paying their unfortunate staff. It beggars belief the difference in terms. Had a chat over a few pints with a guy and girl that work for TNT delivery in west London. They are probably been shafted in every possible way under their so called T&Cs, not just their silly pay scale but sick pay, leave entitlements,maternity &paternity and meal breaks did not have the heart to explain how hard done by they were.
I would like to finish by Thanking all my Colleagues past and present, where ever you are, who had the belief and bottle down the years, to make a stand and take the short term hit in their pay, so that now we can honestly say we have the best T&Cs in Our industry. From now on folks its going to be a race to the bottom.

Post of the year,I'm on my way out but would hate to see my workmates shafted by so called workmates who can't see what's in front of them.

[banner18]

Can someone explain how our terms and conditions are being threatened at the moment. There is a three year protection for our t&c's which is ok considering that our t&c's were up for negotiation every year under public ownership. I do agree that after this three year period there will be attacks on our t&c's but that is a fight for another day, surely? While there is a USO and no main rival end to end service, we are in a very strong monopoly style position, private or public royal mail, makes no difference.

[chrisj]

The difference between striking for T&C in the past compared to this one is that the issue of T&C that we might be striking for is hypothetical. Some people bang on about what sacrifices people have made in the past...

If there is a real issue where the employer says we are going to do this and that then you might want to shout and call people names and use emotional blackmail.

Pay is a clear issue (union wants an increase but I bet it is only a slight one they are asking for)
Pension - I don't even know what that is about...
Terms & Condition - will stay the same for current employees for 3 years


* There are so many issues around working conditions, bullying and harassment and unrealistic standards and demands that the Union can urge our employer about but terms and condition is not changing - not for 3 years. And even after that, they still have to consult the Union and we can strike till out hearts content when they introduce things that affect us directly.

So what do people want RM to do about T&C? Something realistic???

[banner18]

The difference between striking for T&C in the past compared to this one is that the issue of T&C that we might be striking for is hypothetical. Some people bang on about what sacrifices people have made in the past...

If there is a real issue where the employer says we are going to do this and that then you might want to shout and call people names and use emotional blackmail.

Pay is a clear issue (union wants an increase but I bet it is only a slight one they are asking for)
Pension - I don't even know what that is about...
Terms & Condition - will stay the same for current employees for 3 years


* There are so many issues around working conditions, bullying and harassment and unrealistic standards and demands that the Union can urge our employer about but terms and condition is not changing - not for 3 years. And even after that, they still have to consult the Union and we can strike till out hearts content when they introduce things that affect us directly.

So what do people want RM to do about T&C? Something realistic???

Exactly, you've put it better than me. There are some other issues around unrealistic workloads and lapsing. The pay rise is comparitively fair. Absolutely fair I'm not sure. Whether these are strike worthy issues is contentious. The fact is we keep hearing about terms and conditions being the focal point. What is the aim of the strike precisely regarding t&c's?

[chrisj]

The last strike we had there were clear issues at stake. I even went out. Losing money has never been an issue - not a few hundred pounds anyway. By why strike when you simply do not believe that a strike is the solution and when you are happy with the deal we have. Some Union reps need to understand that!

Since the last strike, things have not exactly got better. Workload and Changes are being made despite protestations and some of the changes will have continues with or without privatisation.

* There is a new type of pension
** New workers benefits have been reduced or delayed
*** More short-term contracts
**** Closures and mergers of MC and depots
***** Job losses

and many other things that wind posties up.

Some people just want to Strike as a way of lashing out... What good will it do apart from just lose money.

[stokes11eg]

The truth is it is only on paper that T.C's are safe for 3 years. Seen it all before. I am so glad I am retired. You know, with the Goverment only retaining around I think 36/38 % (Correct me if IIm wrong) the next three years will bring about another sdavage cull of front line workers = more unmaneaglble work load for the few die hards that are left. And , if this privatisation follows the path of others, bit by bit, terms and conditions will slowly be changed.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

* There are so many issues around working conditions, bullying and harassment and unrealistic standards and demands that the Union can urge our employer about but terms and condition is not changing - not for 3 years.

In my opinion they are being directly threatened NOW.

Can someone explain how our terms and conditions are being threatened at the moment.

The no strike deal, not the one leading up to Christmas, but the nebulous "Industrial Stability" agreement they want us to sign up to. Its basically a replacement for the IR Framework, no doubt a little stricter this time, but how many times do we hear of a Unit having something imposed by Executive Action, thereby ignoring the IRF, and then we have to ballot and then wait the 7 days official notification, meanwhile they are riding roughshod over members concerns.

I bet if we sign up to this Industrial Stability Agreement (without details) then the business will put so many hurdles in the way to stop us using the only effective tool we have to stop blatant attacks, but then leave themselves plenty of loopholes, clauses and conditions that will allow them to impose what they want, when they claim its causing instability.

That is a direct attack on our T&Cs and if people can't see that why be a member of a Union.

[stokes11eg]

Delboy is right, sadly. most Posties I know would make up lost wagws in O.T when they go back.

Well that wouldn't happen if there WAS a second ballot asking for an overtime time...................haven't ever seen that work.

As I say, I'm glad I'm gone,,,but I will miss the excitement of the picket lines LOL! There was a feeling of true solidarity--made up for lost wages! Anyway, let's face it, R/M as we know it is doomed, if I was still there, I'd go down fighting----the Posties last stand!
Good luck to everyone. Once a Postie, always a Postie.

[Andy51]

How do you know this

[chrisj]

TBT

Your reply highlights what the problem is...

Everything being lumped together into a one-time agreement - as if, the battle is just a one-off...

The other thing is that you come up with concrete issues but the CWU probably thinks the member are not intelligent enough and perhaps should not be given all the info; either because most cannot process information (true) and perhaps they do not want us to judge them on results.

My real terms and conditions are not being directly threatened now.

There are issues that can be discussed and continue to be discussed by RM and Union - the relationship is an on-going one.

Why pick up such a huge fight so close to Christmas? Of course, the employer does not want us to go on strike and they are doing the right thing to minimise such a thing.

Not wanting us to go on this particular strike before Christmas and after privatisation when they have looked after us is not unreasonable, in my opinion.

I will be prepared to go on Strike if a colleague is or sets of colleagues are unfairly treated...

I do not see your argument. People can bay as much as they want. There are a few people of the same mind out there - and it is not about being spineless or ill-informed.

It is best to pick of small battles here and there instead of going for a full war and then losing.

CWU want RM to never replicate the employment practices of their competitors. Cloud-cuckoo land! The competitors, regulators and EU will soon jump on Royal Mail now that it is a private company. We are better off being on the side of our employer rather than siding with their enemies.

Clear issues:

Pay package -

Pension (perhaps) but then we cannot expect far more generous pension than the rest of the population. Protection will be good but from April 2012 - the pension is now an invested one and not final salary and it is subject to risk....
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* But not so clear is 'fair day for a fair days pay' - is it not part of pay package and one below. And how can that be measured when people refuse to do the job properly

** Future strategy for growth that delivers with us - not despite us: what? That probably covers other issues that we all agree with but then it is not specified - how can it be measured if not concrete.

[chrisj]

Yes, one does not have to be in the Union and some are not.

However, it is a closed-shop in reality - a lot of activities go through the Union not just issues of collective bargaining but even at very minor local level.

Moreover, we are all going to be disrupted anyway, so one might as well have an opinion on Union activities.

[banner18]

* There are so many issues around working conditions, bullying and harassment and unrealistic standards and demands that the Union can urge our employer about but terms and condition is not changing - not for 3 years.

In my opinion they are being directly threatened NOW.

Can someone explain how our terms and conditions are being threatened at the moment.

The no strike deal, not the one leading up to Christmas, but the nebulous "Industrial Stability" agreement they want us to sign up to. Its basically a replacement for the IR Framework, no doubt a little stricter this time, but how many times do we hear of a Unit having something imposed by Executive Action, thereby ignoring the IRF, and then we have to ballot and then wait the 7 days official notification, meanwhile they are riding roughshod over members concerns.

I bet if we sign up to this Industrial Stability Agreement (without details) then the business will put so many hurdles in the way to stop us using the only effective tool we have to stop blatant attacks, but then leave themselves plenty of loopholes, clauses and conditions that will allow them to impose what they want, when they claim its causing instability.

That is a direct attack on our T&Cs and if people can't see that why be a member of a Union.

We went on strike over lapsing. We still made an agreement on lapsing. We said they wouldn't act fairly so we got an agreement about that and they have been acting unfairly and lapsing unrealistically. Anyone can make agreements but reality is far more potent. The union could make a thousand agreements to end bullying and harassment and it won't make a bit of difference because it is systemic. It is built in at the lowest level.

Royal Mail will find a way around any agreement you could conceive of because that is their game, it is capitalism itself at work, it is systemic. You still haven't convinced me how a strike will change this reality for the ordinary man or woman at Royal Mail.

[cloherty1976]

Royal Mail will find a way around any agreement you could conceive of because that is their game, it is capitalism itself at work, it is systemic. You still haven't convinced me how a strike will change this reality for the ordinary man or woman at Royal Mail.

This is so true but I did say once say why can't everyone put a tenner in and that would be a million pounds at least which would employ some of the best legal brains going. Fight fire with fire.

[dvbuk55]

Royal Mail will find a way around any agreement you could conceive of because that is their game, it is capitalism itself at work, it is systemic. You still haven't convinced me how a strike will change this reality for the ordinary man or woman at Royal Mail.

This is so true but I did say once say why can't everyone put a tenner in and that would be a million pounds at least which would employ some of the best legal brains going. Fight fire with fire.

Well we do have lawyers but they are presently busy looking at how the union can have a controlling vote on your shares

[UnhappyGremlin]

Can someone explain how our terms and conditions are being threatened at the moment. There is a three year protection for our t&c's which is ok considering that our t&c's were up for negotiation every year under public ownership. I do agree that after this three year period there will be attacks on our t&c's but that is a fight for another day, surely? While there is a USO and no main rival end to end service, we are in a very strong monopoly style position, private or public royal mail, makes no difference.

That 3 year deal doesn't exist, it hasn't been agreed.
It was due to start on April 1st 2013, ending March 31st 2016. It will not be extended past that date. So, even if agreed now, it's a 2 and a half year deal.

Why wait to fight? Do it now, and get it over with. By the time we come to fight if we wait, I think you'd find we'd have less to defend.