RM Less Than Third Of Staff Back Management And Feel Valued

[Shambles]

one example would be where I was given an objective for the year to reduce the number of occasions something happened by a given percentage. In my view that level of reduction was almost certainly unachievable and I produced some data to show why. However my boss spoke to his boss and came back with the message that if we pushed the issue further up the line, the percentage was likely to go up rather than down so I should just get on with it. Which I did.

The problem with results driven management like this is that senior management might want something like a 5% cost savings plan implemented by increasing efficiency by 10%..

As a manager you might not be able to produce a 10% increase in efficiency,it might be too much like hard work but since the target is actually a 5% cost saving you might be tempted to look elsewhere to make up the difference.

Bullying/encouraging your staff to work for free,not paying overtime,not allowing paid special leave,short staffing,unachievable workloads have all been used to meet these targets for years.
The system of savings targets breeds lazy,corrupt useless management,the fact that managers do not have the courage to stand up and admit that either the targets are unachievable or they are just not personally capable of achieving them isn't something we should defend.

Yep

[Brain Fury]

Trying to sit on the fence here but I don't think this is as black and white as managers religiously sticking to edicts from above. Yes they, ultimately, have to do what they are told, but they should always follow their own conscience. In a business that really values their own staff and managers, both of these apparently polar opposite positions would be valid and acceptable

However, how do the "I was only following orders" defence, and Royal Mails ethos "Allowing our Managers to Manage" really work together. If doesn't because on the Delivery floor we hear of conference calls where managers are belittled, where senior managers shout at Unit Managers within earshot of the staff, and we hear managers too often say "I don't agree with this but....."

If we really had a professional management structure then I submit that the following would happen.

1. Managers would be allowed to manage their own units or sections without hinderance unless they were failing in their responsibilities. There is far too much micro-management from above in Royal Mail.

2. Managers would never "counsel" ANYONE within earshot of any member of staff, and certainly not in view of any managers staff. Its unprofessional and undermines any managerial structure, and any confidence that the staff may have in their own managers.

3. Managers would never say "I don't agree with this but......". They would be allowed to put their position to their own managers without fear or favour, and if then they were instructed to continue as briefed they would do so without comment.

I have only Deliveries to go by, and my own time as NCO in the forces but one of the things that I was advised by my mentors was that if you feel you have to step into a situation that is properly a subordinate managers responsibility, then its not that manager that has failed - but you.

Royal Mails management structure is upside down. Managers are making decisions to cover their own arses, rather than to help the managers and staff under them. Senior managers need to start trusting their own managers, and then perhaps us ordinary grunts may also start to respect them.

A good management structure has support flowing downwards, not upwards, and if managers are making decisions based on fear then it doesn't matter if we are Government owned or floated on the stockmarket, without change we are doomed to failure.

Well made points and I don't really disagree with any of this.

[Brain Fury]

one example would be where I was given an objective for the year to reduce the number of occasions something happened by a given percentage. In my view that level of reduction was almost certainly unachievable and I produced some data to show why. However my boss spoke to his boss and came back with the message that if we pushed the issue further up the line, the percentage was likely to go up rather than down so I should just get on with it. Which I did.

The problem with results driven management like this is that senior management might want something like a 5% cost savings plan implemented by increasing efficiency by 10%..

As a manager you might not be able to produce a 10% increase in efficiency,it might be too much like hard work but since the target is actually a 5% cost saving you might be tempted to look elsewhere to make up the difference.

Bullying/encouraging your staff to work for free,not paying overtime,not allowing paid special leave,short staffing,unachievable workloads have all been used to meet these targets for years.
The system of savings targets breeds lazy,corrupt useless management,the fact that managers do not have the courage to stand up and admit that either the targets are unachievable or they are just not personally capable of achieving them isn't something we should defend.

I wasn't actually talking about savings in this case but actually I believe that you can't manage anything without measuring and setting targets. I am lucky that my boss and his boss are both very good to work for, listen to my point of view and certainly don't demonstrate the failings that TBT describes. I have worked for others that weren't as good. However ultimately as TBT says I believe that you have to do what your boss tells you.

[Brain Fury]

This particular discussion came about because "k979aaa" said that he doesn't think management decisions should be made on the basis of "edicts from above". Either I haven't made myself clear or I am absolutely staggered that you think I have revealed some hidden secret. Haven't you ever been told to do something or do something a certain way and although you don't think it's the right think to do you've just had to do it? Of course you have. That's an "edict from above".

Yes I agree in part, we all have to "get on with it" as long as "it" is "Ethical"

For instance if you had been told to twist the facts to suit your ex- employers agenda, especially at E.T, would you have objected? This is the point.....

I've no experience of the type of things that have been suggested regarding B&H investigations etc. I did attend some kind of employment tribunal many years ago and have been involved with various legal cases and the only instruction that I've got from my line managers was to stick to the facts.

The "facts" ?

The "real facts" ?

If I was ever in a situation where I was told to lie about the facts as I knew them to be then I would tell them to send someone else.

As I said, I was told to stick to the facts that I could back up with evidence - as opposed to offering my opinion. I haven't had a huge experience of such situations but I've never been asked to lie or to hide information.

[borders]

" However ultimately as TBT says I believe that you have to do what your boss tells you."


With statements like that Mr Fury , you have either no understanding of the relationship between Capital and Labour or you have suddenly appeared on here to take the piss.
ever since Adam Crozier announced that the RM workforce was paid around 25% more than other workers in the industry , there has been a slow attack on our terms and conditions . the posties are not daft , Colleague Shares , DtD payments , longer delivery spans etc meanwhile Moya and the management get nice bonuses and their pensions sorted out. the hypocrisy of it all . now we are looking at Privatisation and as well as the manager's perks , the shareholders will be looking at their cut as well. take into account the strife at many delivery offices too , is it any wonder why a postie might question a manager's motive ??

[TrueBlueTerrier]

However ultimately as TBT says I believe that you have to do what your boss tells you.

but don't forget the caveat -

but they should always follow their own conscience

Though to be fair you do mention it in passing.

If I was ever in a situation where I was told to lie about the facts as I knew them to be then I would tell them to send someone else.

Its a pity that sticking to your principles is frowned upon in Deliveries.

[Brain Fury]

" However ultimately as TBT says I believe that you have to do what your boss tells you."


With statements like that Mr Fury , you have either no understanding of the relationship between Capital and Labour or you have suddenly appeared on here to take the piss.
ever since Adam Crozier announced that the RM workforce was paid around 25% more than other workers in the industry , there has been a slow attack on our terms and conditions . the posties are not daft , Colleague Shares , DtD payments , longer delivery spans etc meanwhile Moya and the management get nice bonuses and their pensions sorted out. the hypocrisy of it all . now we are looking at Privatisation and as well as the manager's perks , the shareholders will be looking at their cut as well. take into account the strife at many delivery offices too , is it any wonder why a postie might question a manager's motive ??

Speaking as a manager I think my pension has been just as affected, my Colleague Shares just as worthless and my terms and conditions similarly if not more eroded. However that has nothing to do with the workings of a management structure. Unless you are proposing some form of anarcho-syndicalist or chaos management structure then somebody is going to be in charge and at some point telling you and me what to do. I accept that I have a boss and that ultimately I have to do what he says. Do you believe otherwise?

[Brain Fury]

However ultimately as TBT says I believe that you have to do what your boss tells you.

but don't forget the caveat -

but they should always follow their own conscience

Though to be fair you do mention it in passing.

If I was ever in a situation where I was told to lie about the facts as I knew them to be then I would tell them to send someone else.

Its a pity that sticking to your principles is frowned upon in Deliveries.

Depends what you mean by "conscience". I wouldn't do anything illegal of course and I wouldn't do anything that goes against RM policies (e.g bullying and harassment, ignoring safety policy etc). However, I cannot recall ever being in that position.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Depends what you mean by "conscience". I wouldn't do anything illegal of course and I wouldn't do anything that goes against RM policies (e.g bullying and harassment, ignoring safety policy etc). However, I cannot recall ever being in that position.

Sorry if this shocks you, but it might shed light on Borders response to your post. Every single one of the 3 things you mentioned is broken on a regular, if not daily basis, in most delivery offices across the whole of the UK.

I personally have seen.

1. Managers intentionally sending out overloaded bags to be done on overtime. (safety policy)
2. Managers standing within the personal space of a postie (ie within inches of his face) and saying you will do Overtime because I am telling you (B&H and illegal compulsory overtime) Actually I wasn't a witness I was the postie - it was years ago before RM turned me into a militant leftie.
3. Managers telling people its okay to use their own cars - when they know they don't have the correct insurance (illegal)
4. Managers cancelling overtime even though they know its been worked, without informing the staff member, or why. (illegal withholding of wages)

*this list is not exhaustive.

.......... and their own senior managers know its going on in fact on occasion I have heard them so instructing their junior managers to do similar things.

[Brain Fury]

Going round in circles a bit aren't we? I've already said that I don't condone management abuses and wouldn't follow an instruction to act in this way (if it ever happened). However, I think we've both agreed that not withstanding such abuses, the management structure of RM means that ultimately we all have to do what our boss tells us and that applies at all levels of the business.

[jack]

One of these postie come managers told me that the DSM told him that the more grievances against the DOM put in the better, when I questioned the reason why his response was ' it shows the DOM is doing their jobs properly' . The grievance either won't be heard or the said postie will be marked then sacked

[Danelectro]

Going round in circles a bit aren't we?

[Brain Fury]

Going round in circles a bit aren't we?

?

[fishtank]

I think we've both agreed that not withstanding such abuses, the management structure of RM means that ultimately we all have to do what our boss tells us and that applies at all levels of the business.

Leaving aside the B&H and other stuff that as you have said already you wouldn't do...

I wouldn't implement something I knew was going to fail just because my direct manager told me to do it.
I've faced this situation before on many occasions and having argued the case with my direct manager and got nowhere I have taken it above him for clarification/resolution.
Usually it turns out that the manager's interpretation of the instruction bore little resemblance to the reality.
That might piss my direct manager off a little and I'm sure it doesn't make many friends but the business is bigger than the opinion of one manager.
I suppose it depends on how much confidence you have in yourself versus the people above you and whether you place the good of your colleagues/the company above your own job security.

There are too many managers who lack the confidence to question instructions from above although that lack of confidence may be well founded in many cases.

[borders]

[quote="Brain Fury"][quote="borders"]" However ultimately as TBT says I believe that you have to do what your boss tells you."


did you receive the latest bonus the managers got , after Moya turned the company around and posted £400 million profit ? all in a year , all on her own . what was the company worth a year ago and what did that coincide with ? escapes my memory ?
Brian , I do believe otherwise and I would be all over a Workers Council . I do believe I should be able to have that discussion with him if I don't believe his request is appropriate . I , like TBT , have served in HM Forces so I know when and how to take orders . however , there is no comparison between HM Forces and the RM . you knew that every Lance Corporal , Sergeant , RSM etc had earned that rank through training and most importantly experience . it was easy to take orders from them , these people had seen it and done it.
can you say the same about so many managers in RM ? we have managers that are posties one day and acting managers the next. they certainly don't lead by example when they are posties . whats that all about ?
there are some good managers I concede, just like there is some bad posties but my experience at my place of work of the managers and management structure is not a good one.