What do you think of support from left organisations?

LondonUNISON · Post by **LondonUNISON** » 04 Oct 2007, 15:59

Reading through some of the threads it seems clear that quite a few left groups are supporting the strike. I know this is sometimes portrayed as bandwagoning and maybe sometimes it is. But I think mostly it's because left groups see strikes as being fundamentally political in terms of working class struggle and due to their views want to show solidarity, just like members of other unions do. So do people on here (who aren't members of left groups) welcome support from left groups or do you think those red bastards should keep out of it ;)

By the way I'm in:

www.permanentrevolution.net

so obviously am a bit biased about this!!

borders · Post by **borders** » 04 Oct 2007, 16:36

thanks for your interest and support_LondonUnison, i support left groups etc and have just been on your site and its very interesting. however, where does PermanentRevolution originate from? i find one of the biggest problems with the left is there is too many little parties ,groups etc and why cant we all get behind one party that can challenge this capitalist system we all find us in ? while it is great to learn about working class history and marxism etc , we are all too factious for my liking?

IWW Fellow Worker · Post by **IWW Fellow Worker** » 04 Oct 2007, 16:36

Speaking as someone who isn't a member of a left-wing group, I welcome their support as I welcome support from other unions and individuals. The support from the CPGB has been almost non-existant. One short piece last August and a letter in the letters page of Weekly Worker from a member of the Green Party is about it. The coverage in Socialist Worker has been very good, if uncritical of the CWU leadership. The AWL have also published articles in favour of the dispute.There are comrades on here from the Socialist Party and Workers Power who can answer for themselves, but for me, their support and the articles in their papers have been very welcome. The Anarchist fortnightly 'Freedom' have also carried articles in support of postal workers as has the anarchist website libcom.org. Again speaking personally, I take the view that this is part of a bigger picture. We're under attack, and so are health workers, transport workers, education workers LGO's, students, etc, etc. None of this is new. The only difference between now, and 1971 when I first got involved in politics, is the Labour Party are more up front about shafting the working class than they used to be.

PrestwickPostie · Post by **PrestwickPostie** » 04 Oct 2007, 16:46

had a guy at our picket line most mornings from the socialistworker/solidarity party (Scotland) Graeme Cumming (who lives on my delivery) putting up fliers in support of the CWU and taking pictures of the picket line for the SW website he has been very helpful to us printing out information so that we can pass on to the public about what the strike is really about and he is a genuinely nice bloke and the only political party in Scotland that is supporting the CWU strike

all help is welcome

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=12595

LondonUNISON · Post by **LondonUNISON** » 04 Oct 2007, 16:47

thanks for your interest and support_LondonUnison, i support left groups etc and have just been on your site and its very interesting. however, where does PermanentRevolution originate from? i find one of the biggest problems with the left is there is too many little parties ,groups etc and why cant we all get behind one party that can challenge this capitalist system we all find us in ? while it is great to learn about working class history and marxism etc , we are all too factious for my liking

I totally agree with you about being too factious. Unfortunately I think too much of the left has been tainted with the politics and ways of stalinism. Even if we have disagreements we should still try hard to work together in united fronts and in struggles.

Also I think the left often seems a bit strange/weird to many outside of the left and I think all the left has to make a big effort to try and change that. I think a more outward and less cultish approach is needed where the left realises that socialism is two way street where they don't have all the answers and can learn as well as try and lead.

There probably are genuine differences between the different political groups, but there is far too much in-fighting and I think one way to try and get around that is to get stuck into real struggles and build up rank and file campaigns in the unions and in community struggles.

By the way Permanent Revolution is the result of two splits

Firstly a group called Workers Power split from the SWP in the 1970s over various differences and then about two years ago Workers Power split in half (with PR being one side of the split). However while I think we did have genuine political differences I wish them all the best!

Lastly I'm not the greatest fan of our name, what do you think?

borders · Post by **borders** » 04 Oct 2007, 17:45

LondonUNISON wrote:
thanks for your interest and support_LondonUnison, i support left groups etc and have just been on your site and its very interesting. however, where does PermanentRevolution originate from? i find one of the biggest problems with the left is there is too many little parties ,groups etc and why cant we all get behind one party that can challenge this capitalist system we all find us in ? while it is great to learn about working class history and marxism etc , we are all too factious for my liking
I totally agree with you about being too factious. Unfortunately I think too much of the left has been tainted with the politics and ways of stalinism. Even if we have disagreements we should still try hard to work together in united fronts and in struggles.

Also I think the left often seems a bit strange/weird to many outside of the left and I think all the left has to make a big effort to try and change that. I think a more outward and less cultish approach is needed where the left realises that socialism is two way street where they don't have all the answers and can learn as well as try and lead.

There probably are genuine differences between the different political groups, but there is far too much in-fighting and I think one way to try and get around that is to get stuck into real struggles and build up rank and file campaigns in the unions and in community struggles.

By the way Permanent Revolution is the result of two splits

Firstly a group called Workers Power split from the SWP in the 1970s over various differences and then about two years ago Workers Power split in half (with PR being one side of the split). However while I think we did have genuine political differences I wish them all the best!

Lastly I'm not the greatest fan of our name, what do you think?

thanks for your reply, in our office we had a small group of SWP members who engaged the workforce where ever possible regarding working class struggles and the downside of the capitalist system. when most people read the sun and are more interested in football it is very difficult to make people see the bigger picture and how collective bargaining is very important to improving their pay and conditions. when you raise your head above the parapit in this manner , it is not long before the bosses become aware that there are so-called militant workers in the office and then target them quite viciously. education of the workers and being class- conscious are so important.

borders · Post by **borders** » 04 Oct 2007, 17:47

not too sure about the name either !!!!

kinmad4it · Post by **kinmad4it** » 04 Oct 2007, 18:46

Personally, I want them to keep their noses out and leave us to fight without their endorsement. I'm happy to stand on the picket line with banners about the strike, but don't want some lefty nobend using it to further their own political agenda. I don't endorse their ideas and certainly do not want to be seen to be doing so.
Fine and dandy if they turn up to support us so long as they don't have any banners or placards of their own with them.
Anyway, that's my own personal opinion. I don't expect many to agree with it, but I wont change it either.

LondonUNISON · Post by **LondonUNISON** » 04 Oct 2007, 20:11

thanks for your reply, in our office we had a small group of SWP members who engaged the workforce where ever possible regarding working class struggles and the downside of the capitalist system. when most people read the sun and are more interested in football it is very difficult to make people see the bigger picture and how collective bargaining is very important to improving their pay and conditions. when you raise your head above the parapit in this manner , it is not long before the bosses become aware that there are so-called militant workers in the office and then target them quite viciously. education of the workers and being class- conscious are so important.

I think that strikes can really shift people's views though and I guess that's why the left get so stuck into strikes. The miner's strike is always one of the best examples for me. The NUM membership weren't exactly known for lefty militant views but the strike changed all that and there was a massive shift in terms of the NUMs membership attitude to racism, sexism, homophobia etc I think struggle against the government or bosses can force people to confront the inequalities under capitalism. I remember when the FBU strike was on and there was a big meeting in Lambeth. One of the firefighters said he now knew how immigrants must feel having the tabloids slagging them off day in, day out. And even for the UNISON one day strike we had last year I helped to organise a strike meeting in our building and loads of stuff started getting brought up from why the chief exec got Â£200,000 a year to why we were giving money to the Labour Party.

I guess you can get extra grief from the bosses but if you're a good union activist and respected by the people around you you're more likely to get solidarity if you do get picked on.

Personally, I want them to keep their noses out and leave us to fight without their endorsement. I'm happy to stand on the picket line with banners about the strike, but don't want some lefty nobend using it to further their own political agenda. I don't endorse their ideas and certainly do not want to be seen to be doing so.
Fine and dandy if they turn up to support us so long as they don't have any banners or placards of their own with them.
Anyway, that's my own personal opinion. I don't expect many to agree with it, but I wont change it either

But what if people in your workplace were in left organisations. Would you still have a problem with them having left-wing banners or placards?

Also in terms of furthering a political agenda, surely the strike is political in and of itself so the union has to take a political stance one way or another. I'd say the worst thing is when the union leadership says they wanna stay out of politics as this often translates as them following their political agenda and pretending otherwise.

IWW Fellow Worker · Post by **IWW Fellow Worker** » 04 Oct 2007, 20:29

Not that I see eye to eye with them always, but I'd rather stand next to Trotskyist on a picket line than a fascist. You'd really have to watch your back with those bosses stooges about.

Homo Harry · Post by **Homo Harry** » 04 Oct 2007, 20:37

kinmad4it wrote:Personally, I want them to keep their noses out and leave us to fight without their endorsement. I'm happy to stand on the picket line with banners about the strike, but don't want some lefty nobend using it to further their own political agenda. I don't endorse their ideas and certainly do not want to be seen to be doing so.
Fine and dandy if they turn up to support us so long as they don't have any banners or placards of their own with them.
Anyway, that's my own personal opinion. I don't expect many to agree with it, but I wont change it either.

Sorry kinmadforit.....

you can't have support.... but only on your terms..

This is a fight. A Fight. You're going into this fight with barely a whisper out of the CWU. The media and everyone else L&C can line up is going to portray you as a greedy scumbag who is after more money. You need anyone on your side now, no matter what. Even those turning up to support you who may have an agenda.

Get the fight won. Then argue about was it wrong to turn up with a leftie paper... or placard... because if you don't like placards or banners, Leighton aint got nothing against the BBC running the biggest f**k off placard in the history of f**k off placards all across it's News Bulletins.... when he is winning the political argument while you are out on strike. Those turning up at picket lines with a placard or banner, are on your side... don't diss them.

We'd be idiots to turn anyone away from supporting us.

No offence kinmadforit... but these people are on our side... and often, they have f***ing good ideas on how to win strikes, because they've been there before. ;)